Miguel I

Mexico City, Mexico

Miguel I

June 6, 2019

Interviewer: How old are you Miguel?

Miguel: I’m 30. 30 years old. Just turned 30.

Interviewer: You were born in Mexico.

Miguel: Mexico, yes. We’re Mexican [laughs].

Interviewer: Ciudad de Mexico?

Miguel: Ciudad de Mexico. I had a teacher in University that used to say, “Miguel.” It’s like, “No, it’s Miguel.” She was Chicana. And she was like, “No, Miguel.” She was really into embracing Mexican culture. So, I really come from that tradition when I was living in California. Embracing, you know? That’s pretty cool. But yes, Miguel, Miguel, doesn’t matter. Tomato, tomato [laughing]. Right?

Interviewer: Did you go to school in Mexico before going to the U.S.?

Miguel: Yes, I did.

Interviewer: How many grades?

Miguel: Elementary.

Interviewer: So, you did, what is it? 5th grade?

Miguel: 4th grade. And then I finished elementary in the U.S.

Interviewer: Why did you migrate to the United States? For economic reasons, for violence, for discrimination?

Miguel: Economic. Absolutely, economic.

Interviewer: To reunite with family?

Miguel: To reunite? No. Mostly economic. Economic, that was the main factor going to the States, according to my dad. I was just a little boy.

Interviewer: How old were you?

Miguel: I was 8 years old.

Interviewer: Did you go with a visa or did you cross the border?

Miguel: No, I crossed the border on a Greyhound [laughs].

Interviewer: Did you apply for global asylum?

Miguel: I did not.

Interviewer: Did you become a US resident?

Miguel: No, I did not.

Interviewer: Did you speak any English?

Miguel: Nope, no English. Like Chinese when I first heard it. They just threw me in North Carolina. Just, “All right, good luck.” And nobody spoke Spanish. I was the only Latino. So, I was the first one to inaugurate ESL in my school.

Interviewer: So, you learned English in the United States, at school?

Miguel: In school and watching TV and obviously interacting with my brother. My brother was a big factor. You know, talking to him in English. That helped a lot. Playing video games, watching shows, that kind of incremented that.

Interviewer: Your English is fluent now. In what cities did you live in the US?

Miguel: I live in North Carolina obviously, then from that.

Interviewer: That was Raleigh, right?

Miguel: That was Raleigh and then you know Charlotte, Monroe, and then after that we went to Florida. My dad went to Miami. We lived there for a couple years, I think like five, six years and then we moved to California. We crossed country on a car from Florida to California, so we saw all the states and did a little bit tourism, which was pretty cool.

Interviewer: Got it. So, you went to school in the U.S. How far did you study in the U.S.?

Miguel: I went to University. ELAC. East LA College.

Interviewer: What did you study there?

Miguel: I studied philosophy. [Pause] ELAC. Amazing school.

Interviewer: Did you get a degree?

Miguel: Did not get a degree.

Interviewer: So how many years did you go?

Miguel: I did like three years.

Interviewer: So you were a junior?

Miguel: Junior. Did not finish unfortunately.

Interviewer: So, you finished your junior year, or?

Miguel: Yes, I did. Absolutely. I just didn’t finish that. I need to finish, I’m 30 years old. I need to finish what I started, right [chuckles]? Which is going to be easier here, right? It’s not as expensive. ELAC was expensive. ELAC is a community college but you still have to pay money. Yes.

Interviewer: Did you work in the U.S.?

Miguel: I did. I did since I was 17 years old. I worked for eight years.

Interviewer: What jobs?

Miguel: Mainly restaurants and some in construction, but mainly restaurants.

Interviewer: What work were you doing in restaurants?

Miguel: I started from the bottom and then went to manager. Busboy to manager all the time. And then a little bit of construction. A little bit of framing. Carpentry. I got more money for carpentry than in restaurants as a manager, but that’s okay [chuckles]. Almost got my finger chopped off [chuckles].

Interviewer: In your last job in the U.S., how much did you earn a hour?

Miguel: How much did I earn a hour? I was making $20 an hour. $20 an hour. I think that’s like a thousand, it was a thousand a week. 20,000 pesos a week. It’s not bad. I wish I can make that again [chuckles].

Interviewer: Who did you live with when you lived in the U.S.?

Miguel: I lived with my father, my mother, my brother and myself. Typical family, mom, dad, brother and myself. Yes. All the time.

Interviewer: Were you frightened of the U.S. authorities?

Miguel: Yes, I mean I was. A little bit.

Interviewer: Did you guys send money to relatives in Mexico?

Miguel: Yes. We did.

Interviewer: About how many times a year?

Miguel: How many times a year? I’d say like 10 times a year. My dad was pretty consistent with that.

Interviewer: About how much each time?

Miguel: How much each time?

Interviewer: Roughly.

Miguel: You know, roughly, maybe like a hundred bucks. A hundred dollars. Which is like a thousand pesos here, which is not bad.

Interviewer: So, you lived in the U.S. for how many years?

Miguel: 20 years.

Interviewer: Did you qualify for the Dreamers program, the DACA?

Miguel: I did. I did. I kind of screwed that up.

Interviewer: Did you apply for it?

Miguel: Didn’t apply.

Interviewer: Why?

Miguel: Didn’t even attempt to do it. I was working, didn’t think I was going to get deported. You know, you think your life’s secure and you’re good. You don’t need that paper, right, but… That’s why I didn’t, just neglect. Really, neglect. [Pause] that’s really what it was, neglect. [Pause] that’s my fault, really. I don’t regret it though.

Interviewer: What caused you to leave the United States?

Miguel: What caused me to leave the… I got deported, I got deported, unfortunately. I was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Wasn’t supposed to be there. My dad kind of predicted it too—”Be careful son,” Cause he knew that I liked to talk about politics, that was my weakness. Talking about politics, to the wrong person that has power [chuckles]. That can—

Interviewer: Did you appear before a judge?

Miguel: I did. Not at the time, but later on.

Interviewer: Were you informed of your rights?

Miguel: Yes, I was, I was.

Interviewer: Did you have a lawyer helping you?

Miguel: I did not have a lawyer. Unfortunately.

Interviewer: How long were you detained for?

Miguel: How long? Like three months. Three months detained. The whole detention, the whole deporting process. Different prisons too. I was in North Carolina, South Carolina, I was in Georgia and then finally Arizona. That was the only place they gave good food, chilaquiles [chuckles]. With a little bit of meat, but it was all right. It wasn’t that bad [chuckles]. Eating soy, everything soy, right. Mystery meats, so that was pretty good. Eating beans as well, because they were trying to get you used to the diet of Mexico. Yes, because you have a certain diet in prison, you’re about to get released, your stomach’s not used to, so you can get sick pretty easily, so they were trying to get your stomach used to eating beans and tortillas. You know menudo. They had menudo with a little bit of meat, like one meat, floating in there [chuckles]. But it was good, it got you used to the diet here in Mexico.

Miguel: When I first got here and I ate some tacos al pastor, that was like being in heaven [chuckles]. Really. That was heaven.

Interviewer: When you returned to Mexico did any representatives of an organization greet you?

Miguel: Yes, they gave me a sandwich, a comb.

Interviewer: A comb?

Miguel: A comb [chuckles]. A sandwich and a comb and good luck, if you want to get a good job [chuckles].

Interviewer: How long have you been back in Mexico?

Miguel: Three years already. It’s been three years, yes.

Interviewer: You lived in Mexico City?

Miguel: Mexico City. In one place, Via Guapa.

Interviewer: Who do you live with now?

Miguel: I live with my mom, my brother and myself. Soon my dad wants to come back. That hasn’t happened, but we’re hoping cause he’s already old. He’s like 60 something years old. We don’t want him to, you know, sucks to say this, but to die in the US. I want him to come here and I can take him to eat. He wants to eat tacos de canasta. He always tells me, “I wanna eat tacos de canasta. I miss the tacos de canasta.” You know, so it’s pretty rough for me. But he’s living good. I mean he wrote a book, you know that means he has tranquility and he deserves that after working hard for us so many years. He deserves to write that book and he already did it, so, makes me proud, really.

Interviewer: Since your return, have you become aware of any programs that helps poor returning migrants?

Miguel: I did. My dad even wrote a letter to the governor of Mexico City. Didn’t really do anything, it was a lot of politics coming back, not doing anything. They gave me a check. It didn’t have any stub. The check was worthless. “Yes, come back. It’s going to take three months, we’re going to give you 13,000 pesos, so you can get your business started.” Didn’t happen, it was just too many politics. It was too hard for me to get it. Too many coming back and forth and telling me incongruent stories. That’s why I started working in call centers. My idea was to get a school of English, get this money, but that never happened. So that program is, it just really discourages you from getting that money. It’s just too many, too many doors, too many hoops you have to jump through. So, it really discouraged me to take that and start—

Miguel: The program was called repatriados. Right? And you do the whole process, the people are really nice, with a smile. But at the end, there’s no actions, there’s no—I don’t know if you know Spanish, but my grandpa, he said “De lengua me como tres tacos, hechos.” Too much tongue, not enough actions. So it didn’t really help me. It didn’t help me at all. It sucked. I needed to work. I was getting money in call centers. I started here in Teletech, actually.

Interviewer: Have you studied anything since you’ve been back?

Miguel: Studied? No. Unfortunately, no.

Interviewer: What jobs have you had?

Miguel: I worked in Teletech, just call centers, in general. Call centers, in general. I actually wrote a lot of poetry working in call centers about the mechanization of human life. Because in North Carolina it was so nice … It wasn’t so urbanized. When I was working in call centers, I was developing ideas about mechanization of human life. I even have a poem. Maybe I can tell you later on.

Interviewer: Let’s do it when we’re doing the open recording.

Miguel: Yes, I’ll tell you the poem that I wrote, but yes just working in call centers.

Interviewer: How much do you make? Are you working there now?

Miguel: Currently, I’m not working. I quit because the guy was being too nasty with me. I don’t know if he was jealous, but he was just talking too much smack. It wasn’t a good job environment, so I quit. So, right now I’m looking for a job.

Interviewer: How much were you paid at the last one?

Miguel: I was paying weekly. You know, it varied, it was sales, so it varied. It depended on commissions. It was between 2,000 and 5,000 a week. Wasn’t that bad.

Interviewer: So, you were being paid on commission?

Miguel: I was being paid on commission. If you didn’t make any commission, you didn’t get paid. But I learned Jordan Belfort Straight Line System. And selling to people, persuading folks to buy time shares [chuckles]. That’s what I was doing and that’s when I quit because the guy was being too nasty.

Interviewer: Do you feel safe in Mexico?

Miguel: I do feel safe. Even though people tell me stories, they get kidnapped or… But I do feel safe.

Interviewer: Have you been the victim of a violent crime?

Miguel: I have not been the victim of a violent crime, yet [chuckles].

Interviewer: Do you feel more vulnerable as a returning migrant?

Miguel: More vulnerable? [Pause] not really.

Interviewer: Was your return to Mexico difficult?

Miguel: Extremely difficult.

Interviewer: So, I’m going to list a couple of things and you tell me. Finding a job?

Miguel: It was difficult at first, yes ma’am.

Interviewer: Are there economic challenges?

Miguel: You know, paying the rent, without a job, paying light bills, gas bills. Talking to people and then people saying, “Where you from?”

Interviewer: So, language.

Miguel: Language. A little bit of language.

Interviewer: And continuing the education?

Miguel: Continuing the education as well.

Interviewer: Family separation?

Miguel: Family separation. Very big factor.

Interviewer: Family unit or friends?

Miguel: Yes.

Interviewer: Adapting to Mexican culture?

Miguel: Yes, I’m not going to lie. I love Mexican culture, but it was a little bit hard. Not the nice part of culture, like the art, the dances, the food and all that, but just being on the metro [chuckles]. Or on the bus, you know, little things that type of culture [chuckles].

Interviewer: Discrimination?

Miguel: Oh, yes, absolutely.

Interviewer: Bureaucratic difficulties? You talked about those, about through your program assistance, so I guess your basic bureaucracy—

Miguel: Yes, I did. Absolutely.

Interviewer: How about depression? Did you suffer any of that?

Miguel: Depression. Yes, yes, the first year was kind of depressing.

Miguel: Things happen for a reason. I’m here for a reason, you know. I’m here to do something. I’m not just here because I’m deported. I’m here because, you know, I don’t know if you believe in God. I do believe in God. I think God put me here for a reason. Maybe to write a book, maybe to paint, cause I do see myself in that position. It’s a little bit rough right now, but nobody had it easy. You know that’s in in a good position now, so, that’s what I’m thinking, you know? I’ve been stimulated. I’ve been more mature here, actually [chuckles]. It’s made me more rough. Made me more rough. More and more attentive. In the US I was kind of pampered. Because the US is the first world, so you’re kind of pampered, you have everything. Here you become rough.

Miguel: They have a saying, “Te crece el callo.” Callo is callus. You develop calluses. You know, when you play guitar. And then your fingers get hard. It doesn’t hurt as much, and you play with more facility. It’s the same thing here. I think you develop sort of a social callus. Makes you stronger, makes you faster. I think if I go back to the States, I’ll be ten times smarter, ten times faster, ten times stronger, in terms of survival, really. Survival of the fittest because that’s what I see here, in the city. Survival of the fittest [chuckles]. In every direction. That’s the real God of Mexico. Instead of the Virgencita de Guadalupe and all that, the real God is survival. That’s what they worship here.

Miguel: And you need to be smart, you can’t afford to be dumb here, at all. You have to be smart here, you have to get knowledge, get education. Because you’re going to be left behind, everything’s very fast moving. I even got that concept, that movement is essential for our society. Everything’s movement. Without movement, you know, there is no growth, there is no development. So that’s what I’m analyzing right now. Just the concept of movement. It’s really stimulating here [chuckles]. It has pros and cons, right? But It’s really stimulating. If you’re a writer, if you’re a philosopher, if you’re an artist, it’s really stimulating to live here.

Interviewer: You spent most of your childhood there in the U.S.

Miguel: My childhood, my whole idiosyncrasy. My whole world view is shaped by the American perspective. That’s why I see myself acting differently than most folks here. I have a different perspective of life.

Interviewer: How do you see yourself acting?

Miguel: [Chuckles] I guess I demand my rights. You know, I don’t know, I don’t have my head down [chuckles]. I’m confident. I walk with confidence in the world. I’m sure by myself and I demand my rights. My girlfriend, she doesn’t want me to do that because she feels embarrassed sometimes. For example, just a common example, if we’re walking behind somebody in their space or they’re just blocking the whole thing, and there’s space on the other side, I just say, “Excuse me, excuse me.” And my girlfriend gets mad because here according to this culture, you have to wait. People are afraid to say excuse me. Stuff like that. And I guess just the freedom of thinking. Freedom of developing my own world view, not following an ideology that’s been traditional for many years. I shape my own world view, that’s what I learned in the States. That rugged individualism [chuckle]. Which could be bad and good. I think it’s mostly good to have rugged individualism.

Miguel: That’s why I love to listen to jazz. Jazz is the greatest description of the U.S. and of that attitude. Of keeping it cool and that rugged individualism, improvisation. I listen to jazz sometimes when I’m on the metro. And then another metro passes by and you’re listening to jazz and then you see the night, the lights, the cars moving by. It’s very inspirational [chuckles].

Interviewer: You think jazz is a form of rugged individualism?

Miguel: Absolutely, I think jazz is about rugged individualism. It’s about a guy with his instrument, just making it up as he goes. Just making it up as he goes. And it’s democratic, if you think about it, cause everybody gets to speak in jazz, even the bass player. Some people just listen to the brass, but everybody has a story to tell. Everybody listens. Everybody has something to say. Everybody has a solo. I think that’s the only art form that has a solo, and it’s rugged individualism. It’s the American initiative. That’s what America is to me. That rugged individualism. That sometimes we don’t have here in Mexico. It’s very collective. Even though we say it’s individualistic, it’s not, it’s very collective.

Interviewer: Is collective good?

Miguel: Collective is good. I love collective. You go to a family gathering and you eat pozole [chuckles]. You’re breaking a pinata. They’re inviting you to a lot of things. I’ve been to Itzapalapa, I’ve been to Tepito. I’ve been to all kinds of places, celebrated, very, very collective. People helping each other out when the earthquake happens. People are very collective. Which is good. I try to balance both. I try to balance the individualism of America and now in this new stage of my life, the collectivism. To be more collective. Trying to balance it out, maybe something can happen. A good balance can always bring a good result, I think. So, I don’t know. I’m learning from the collectivism. I think it’s good. It’s not always good to be individualistic, right? There’s another pluralism of the U.S. I’m still pluralistic, I’m trying to change that a little bit.

Interviewer: Do you think Mexico is less pluralistic?

Miguel: I think so. I think so, but there is rare kind of Mexican though. Maybe not the general public, yes, but there is a rare kind of Mexican that are pluralistic. But I think, in general they’re not. I think in general they do come with some baggage. They carry baggage. They’ve been domesticated. In the States we’ve been domesticated too, but I guess, if you’re in the right place and you talk to the right people, you can have this pluralism of having your own world view. I think it’s becoming more plural… pluralistic [struggling to enunciate the word]—I can’t even talk right now. Pluralistic, that’s a hard word for me, but overall, it’s not that plural, pluralistic.

Interviewer: What does pluralism mean to you [chuckles]?

Miguel: Pluralism, it’s everybody has their own… It comes from post-modernism, right? Everybody has their own truth, there’s not an absolute truth. Your truth is just as valid as the other man’s perspective and it’s that perspective, ideas of world views. But here, I think since they’re Roman Catholics. I think there’s a little bit of that still in the subconscious of Mexicans. And some—I mean it’s becoming more pluralistic nowadays. I do see that, but there’s still that baggage of thinking collectively. That absolute worldview.

Interviewer: Do you think that with the return of so many migrants from the U.S., that you guys are changing Mexico in any way?

Miguel: I think so. I think, I think so. I see it every day. In terms of the lingo, in terms of the way people carry themselves. But there’s some sort of hatred as well. I do see it. People who are prepared here, that have it, you know, college degrees. They went to very good universities. They see somebody like myself, bald headed—I’m not a cholo right? They see me bald headed, I speak English, they kind of, they see me… There’s a lot of jealousy, right? So, they see you kind of less than them. They start talking bad about you, stuff like that. But I think, even though, they try to deny it, they are being influenced. Absolutely. By the arrival of Mexican Americans. There’s no doubt about that.

Interviewer: How do you think they’re being influenced?

Miguel: In terms of the lingo and the way they speak. The expressions they use, the way they carry themselves. That individualism is creeping in [chuckles]. It’s really creeping in. It’s unavoidable. It’s like champagne [laughs]. Gives you an acceleration, it’s bubbly and very pleasing. Some try to deny it, some don’t. But I do see that, I do see that as changing though. Mostly the youngsters. Mostly the young people. Some are cool, like, “You come from the States, that’s awesome” and they try to learn as much as they can from you. “What did you see, how do you say this, what is this song saying?”, “Oh it’s saying this…” So there’s an interaction, there’s a integration really because we date, you know, Mexicans here as well and, you know, they teach us stuff, we teach them stuff as well. And so, mostly ourselves [chuckles] we learn a lot from them. How to survive here.

Interviewer: What’s the difference between dating a Mexican person and dating an American?

Miguel: Dating an American. There’s a lot of differences [chuckles]. Well, first, Mexican girlfriends, they’re very… Well it goes back to the individualism, right? It all goes back to that. The girlfriends that I had in the States, very individualistic. You couldn’t, you can’t dictate what they have to do. You don’t own them. You know? If anything, they own you [chuckles]. Right? Women are very, very rough. I dated all kinds of races too. African Americans, white Americans, Chicanas, Asian Americans. They’re all different, but what they do share is this individual, this feminism. “You know I have something to say. I’m just as important as you.” You know and learning how to compromise here. What I learned from the girlfriends that I had here is that you can pretty much do whatever you want. Right? They’re not going to demand. Some that are pretty rough, they will demand stuff, you know they will be very loyal.

Miguel: But what I see here is that women are very loyal. They want to, kind of clean your clothes and cook your dinner. I never had a girl from the States that’s going to cook me some dinner or clean me my clothes. But yes, the girlfriend’s here, they do that [in awe]. Very, with my mom, they get along though and they’re cleaning together, and I don’t know. It’s very marriage-oriented mentality, right? Even though you’re boyfriend and girlfriend. They see you as their husband really. The way they treat you, the way I’ve been treated by the girlfriends here is that, you know, like a little girl, almost. Taking care of you, it’s pretty nice. I like it. I like the way they treat you here, the Mexican girls.

Interviewer: You like it better?

Miguel: Do I like it better? I mean, kind of. I kind of like it better. But I kind of miss somebody, you know, telling me you’re kind of fucking up here, you know [chuckles]. Don’t tell me that this is right because this is wrong. It’s good to hear that sometimes. Somebody to critique you. That’s what I like about the American girlfriends. That critique. Right [chuckles]?

Interviewer: So, how long’s it take a Mexican girlfriend to move into this kind of, it’s a marriage? I understand what you mean metaphorically. Is it immediate, is it once you’re boyfriend, girlfriend and it becomes familial… or does it take a while?

Miguel: It doesn’t take a while, maybe within two weeks. I mean, not everybody’s the same. The girls that I was dating were like that. You know, maybe because I was nice. I like to be a gentleman. Very gentleman with women, you know, open the door and—I learned that, to be nice. And I always tell them, your opinion is very important to me, and you’re just as independent as me. I mean, I’m not better than you, you’re not better than me. We’re the same, pretty much the same. But it takes around two weeks already and you’ve got them in the bag [laughs].

Interviewer: Do you get Mexican women to ever tell you’re full of shit?

Miguel: Some women, they do. Some women do, they do tell you, you’re full of shit. Mexican women. But it’s not very common. I only had one girlfriend tell me that. She was Mexican, but she was this type of feminist Mexican. You see, it’s very different because there is…I don’t know, it is very different here. It’s very crazy. You do have Mexican women with a different tradition. Maybe the father wasn’t around, maybe the father hit their mother. In this case, her father hit her mother – a very abusive relationship and her father was an alcoholic. So, she demanded, and she would tell you if something was wrong, but she would tell you with the Mexican flavor. Which is different, which is pretty cool, right? Tells you with the Mexican flavor, but it’s very rare to find that.

Interviewer: What’s a Mexican flavor telling you, you’re full of shit?

Miguel: With cuss words, like “no chingas la madre, no!” or “Este, estas alli sentado hablando ingles todo el dia y te quejas no” y.. o “se despiertan y tienes que ponerte chingon” It’s like holy shit, like I never had somebody talk to me like that.

Interviewer: So do you need to get your act together?

Miguel: You need to get your act together, but you’re saying it nicely [both laugh]. You’re saying it in a very nice way. They say it very nastily. But it’s just to wake you up. That’s how their grandmothers talked. Or you tell them, “Hey, man I kind of messed up in this. It was an accident’ [mimics voice]. “No, it’s por pendejo.” It’s like, okay. Pendejo, that’s worse than saying stupid. I think pendejo is like the ne plus ultra of saying stupid to somebody [chuckles]. But that’s what I… but it’s very rare. That’s one girlfriend that I had.

Interviewer: Is Mexican society more patriarchal or is patriarchal more American?

Miguel: [Pause] I mean traditionally it’s patriarchal, right? But I think that there is a shift. There’s been a little bit of a shift. At least the last girlfriend that I had, her mother was the one that had the pants in the house. And worked. This is the same father that hit her. But I mean, in general, we’re speaking in general, I think it’s more patriarchal than in the States. Honestly. I mean, if the father’s going to buy something, they have to consult with the wife. You’re not going to sell them something, if they don’t consult with the wife. The wife has the final decision, really. And here it’s more patriarchal, but there has been a little bit of a shift, but it’s very rare. It’s very small, in general, I think it’s more patriarchal. Right?

Interviewer: Have you been able to have these kinds of philosophical conversations here?

Miguel: Yes, yes, yes. I talk about philosophy in mercados with old people, eating food, right? People are very educated here, and you do find people that can sustain a pretty good conversation. Depends where you go. But, yes, you do find spaces where you’re eating, you start talking about God, you start talking about politics, then you turn it to philosophy. And I love talking about that. I mean it’s very nutritious for your brain. You know and it’s usually older folks, that you talk about philosophy. Younger folks, not so much, maybe I never had the chance to do that. But I had spaces, I had time to talk about that. People are interested in that.

Interviewer: I’ve found a lot of people that we’ve spoken to, who we are speaking to in the United States that didn’t go to college, some got in trouble, you know. [inaudible] And their reflective capacity, they’re philosophers.

Miguel: They had a philosophical experience, right? That whole being deported is a philosophical experience, itself, you know. I mean, [chuckles] it really forces you to think about existentialism, essentially [chuckles]. About your life, the meaning of life, what am I going to do. It’s a new world, I’m a new person. You become a new person. You reinvent yourself. Coming here, it’s an extremely philosophical experience. And you’re experiencing two different cultures. And you’re learning how to adapt to those cultures. So, it’s urgently philosophical. In an urgent manner. You know and it forces you to think, it forces you to write. Some people don’t do that, some people might get into trouble. I find that people that get deported from the States tend to avoid that criminal lifestyle that they had in the States and they come here to become better. That’s what I’ve seen. And that’s pretty amazing.

Interviewer: Why do you think that is?

Miguel: Well, I think it’s the necessity, right? It’s a radical change, first of all. In terms of culture. And it’s a matter of survival. So, this is the worst thing that could happen to you, right, as an American. To be taken away from your country, so it’s a very traumatic experience. You come here and it’s a necessity to survive and to become successful. And you also see the conditions here, which are different.

Miguel: The jail system is not the same. It’s like a concentration camp, so you don’t want to go to jail here. In the States, you could kind of afford to go to jail, it’s a five-star service hotel, resort, and spa [chuckles]. Right, they cook you your food, they clean your clothes, you can study, you can become somebody there. Malcolm X, coming out of jail became Malcolm X. Right [chuckles]? It’s a nice place. Compared to Mexican jails [chuckles].

Miguel: Mexican jails, it’s like a concentration camp. So, you have that in your mind, you don’t want to go to jail here. You see the conditions, you’re not, as an American, you come here, you’re not dumb. You see the conditions here are different. And then when you have a job like that, like a call center, in an office, makes you feel good. Right, because in the States you probably didn’t have that opportunity to work in front of a computer with air conditioning and being able to wear a suit and feel important. So, you have that job and so you see all this, and you got to take care of it. And then you get a nice girlfriend, that takes care of you and it’s nice. Very traditional. And you see the opportunities here and you tell yourself, “Well, if I continue in this path, on this good path, then I can become somebody here. I can redeem myself.” And people do redeem themselves and become better and probably live better than in the States.

Interviewer: Many people talk about how discriminated they are against here.

Miguel: Yes, it does happen.

Interviewer: But you’re saying that there’s a positive experience, which is many deportees—is also kind of dignifying.

Miguel: It is dignifying. You have tattoos, maybe taxis won’t stop here for you because you look like a criminal—you’re going to get discriminated—and then you get a good job like that — that people here with university titles have. So, you’re working right next to a sociologist, with tattoos. So, Smokey, from East LA [chuckles], that was gang banging, he could barely finish high school is sitting next to somebody that burned their eyebrows to get a position like that, so you feel good. You feel dignifying, you feel like you have value. And you walk differently, and you talk differently. And you feel good about yourself.

Miguel: Well, that’s what I got here. I mean, I’m speaking from my own experience, right. That’s what I got here. It does feel dignifying. And I can kind of sense that on people too.

Interviewer: And does that Smokey from LA [Miguel laughs]… Sitting beside this sort of middle-class Mexican kid, who’s learned English watching TV and is trying to practice his English at this call center, do they become friends?

Miguel: Some of them become friends. Some of them, some don’t, but mostly they become friends. Mostly. Some don’t, I say some, because some feel kind of, they feel bad. I paid a lot of money to get this English. I’m still not in the same level as Smokey [chuckles]. Right? Not in the same level as Smokey. Even though Smokey is not a math genius, he has this very good English. He can connect with an American audience. Then he becomes manager, you know. There might be some sort of, you know, jealousy, middle class. Maybe their parents paid their school, some become friends.

Miguel: I had a lot of friends, sociologists, but that’s because of what I studied, right? So, we would talk about Nietzche, Sartres, Heidegger, but Smokey’s not going to talk about that. Right, he’s going to talk about something else. Usually, Smokey likes to talk about how many beers he’s going to drink after he leaves the office. You know, about his girlfriend, about his experience here in Mexico, you know, or what happened in the metro. Hey, You know, “Somebody just stepped on my shoes, they didn’t say sorry, man you believe that, Miguel?” “No, Smokey, that really happen to you, man?” Didn’t say sorry, you know, stuff like that. They like to talk about stuff that happened here and how it’s different. I love hanging out with them and talking about life and you get this solidarity, and it feels good. It makes me feel good.

Miguel: “Smokey, you knew the joker from Boyle Heights?” “Yes, man, I used to live on Evergreen and First”, “No way, man, I used to live there too.” So, you start a conversation, it feels good. And they can’t relate with people that studied here, right? But they relate in a way ‘cause they want to learn more English. And they want to perfect their English, get more slang and Smokey has that available to them. You know, makes them look cool too. In front of their friends too, right? It’s like, I learned this slang. So, you, some become friends, and some don’t. I think it’s mixed.

Interviewer: Yes.

Miguel: Between jealousy and some are like, “Okay, I want to learn”.

Interviewer: Is the call center, I’m trying to understand, is it a place where, there’s less—on the streets is it harder?

Miguel: Yes.

Interviewer: If you come back from the States, is there discrimination?

Miguel: Yes. Yes, absolutely.

Interviewer: What does pocho mean?

Miguel: Pocho, it’s an insult. Since I studied existentialism, I make fun of myself. I learned to make fun of myself and to embrace my imperfections. Some people tell me, “That’s not how you pronounce it.” I say I’m pocho. Pocho means you don’t know how to pronounce Spanish correctly, so you say, “Vamos a parquear el carro.” It’s words that are mixed with English. Parquear it’s not parking, it’s estacionar. [chuckles].

Miguel: They discriminate against what we do. You know, they kind of took that away from me though here, because I was, I’d been less pocho. Not so much, but less pocho. So instead of saying, “Bring me la tuna.” Tuna you know, the fish, right? But tuna, it’s a fruit here. You have to say atun. Like, “Bring me the atun.” No. “Me, me voy a entunar.” It’s like “No no, como te entunas – te vas a entonar.” So I’m, you know, it helps you. Having a girlfriend helps. If you have a girlfriend that can correct that, they can correct it in a nice way. Some people don’t, some people see you as ignorant. That you don’t know how to speak Spanish. But pocho, yes, I’m pocho. I’m a little bit pocho. I’m not going to lie.

Interviewer: So, in this call center, it’s a place where the discrimination goes away, what you see on the streets, or is there still discrimination between the pochos and the non-pochos?

Miguel: I think it’s not as intense. I think people start adapting in a call center. Because the majority are Mexican Americans, deportees, the majority. So, they get accustomed and they get used to it. And the streets are more, they’re a little more rough.

Interviewer: So do you sit in the call centers talking to the kids who are educated here about Heidegger?

Miguel: Heidegger, Sartre. “Say what is this Cholo can speak about this?”, “I’m not Cholo, man.” I know I like being bald-headed, you know because I like Foucault. I like to look like Michel Foucalt, right [chuckles]? He’s a bald-headed guy too, right? With glasses. I wear glasses, myself, too. But yes, I speak about Foucault and immediately they can detect that—

Interviewer: So, wait a minute, they hear you talking about Heidegger, and Nietzsche, and Sartre, and Foucault. That must blow their mind —

Miguel: [Chuckles] because they expect you not to talk about that. I say, “Well, you’re actually educated. Nice then We can talk, right?” Yes, but I mean it is a surprise, though, to them. Especially when I refer them to books that I read before. Or even like tell them philosophers they never heard before. Right, like Ernest Cassirer, German philosopher, they haven’t heard about him. So it is exciting to them and it kind of gives me a pass. It kind of does give me a little bit of a pass because I have something to talk about, right. And I have an idea. It’s a little bit harder for me to express myself with their ideas in Spanish because of the terminology, because I read all of this in English. So my terminology, you know, I try to translate. It’s a little bit hard. I’m kind of in a crutch when I’m speaking in Spanish in terms of philosophy, right. In English, you know, I can express myself pretty good, those ideas because I read it in English.

Miguel: I’m trying to read them in Spanish. Which is a little bit hard because of the words. There are complicated words in Spanish. But that’s actually another goal of mine. To develop Spanish on the same level as English. Spanish is slightly on the bottom.

Interviewer: These concepts, it’s hard stuff [Miguel laughs] if it’s not your first language.

Miguel: Yes, ma’am. Absolutely. But I’m pushing myself, forcing myself. It’s hard, it’s like a mountain, but it’s like Karl Marx said, right? In The Capital, the beginning pages, introduction, he was saying that there is no golden road to science. You got to climb and when you climb it, you overcome the fatigue of climbing, you will get to the summit. And you will enjoy that beautiful view. But first you need to climb the mountain, right? I’m kind of paraphrasing what he said, but it’s along those lines of climbing a mountain and overcoming the fatigue. That’s what I’m doing. It is very fatiguing to read in Spanish, but I want to get to that summit and be able to express myself good in Spanish. It’s important for me because I want to study here. Spanish, or not Spanish, but study here, finish what I started.

Interviewer: What?

Miguel: Philosophy. It’s not going to give me anything. Maybe I won’t become rich, but I finished that. I finished something that I love. I’m not in it for the money. You don’t need to be smart to have money or you don’t need to have a career to have money. You know, I can open a juice stand and become a philosopher. It doesn’t matter to me [chuckles]. As long as I get the career in. And mainly write, I want to become a writer.

Miguel: I have a family of writers. My dad’s a writer, my uncle’s a writer. My uncle writes books. Maybe I’ll bring a book to you. It’s not that hard, it’s a small one. He likes to condense his books. He’s into simplicity and it’s called “Los Herederos de la Conquista.”And there’s not a lot of sophisticated terminology. He made it for the public, so they can read it. Basically, what he’s saying in that book is that if Hernan Cortes was the first conquistador, right now AMLO is the last conquistador and that the conquest was inherited. That it was inherited and the same demons that made the Mexican empire collapse, is making us still being conquered. We’re still being conquered. He wrote that book and many others, so… That’s my dream.

Interviewer: Are you a fan of AMLO?

Miguel: I’m not a fan of AMLO, but I think that he’s more proud of Mexico and he defends Mexico and he’s not shoe shining the American boots, as the other… Kind of shoe shining, but not too much. Right? He did speak back to Trump a little bit. Right, he spoke diplomatically….

Miguel: Trump is a populist. Populism is winning right now. That’s my fear. Populism is winning. But that’s because of the defects of capitalism. It hasn’t worked for the average Joe. Right. Worked for the one-percenters. Even in the US. Right and I’m not a big fan of… I did vote for him [AMLO] because he was wearing Guayaberas. He was more proud of… So in terms of an image, in terms of the image, I like the image that he was presenting. That’s why I voted for him. The other image was more, they were into this European image. You know, I like the fact that he’s… and he’s talking about Neoliberalism. I’m not a big fan of Neoliberalism, as well. Or privatization. So, I kind of like that, his rhetoric. [chuckles]

Miguel: He is educated, actually the way he speaks to him, he’s educating Trump and speaking rough to him, like a father would speak to a son. That’s how he’s speaking and he’s very intelligent. He’s also letting him know of the importance of Mexicans in the States, in the United States, in the U.S., right. But it’s still kind of premature, no, right? His candidacy. I’m hoping that he would do something great. Right, because Mexico deserves it. But you know, you never know. Maybe I’ll be the next president. Right? Maybe I’ll do something about it, right?

Interviewer: Okay, I have a few more questions. Do you currently follow U.S. news?

Miguel: I do, yes ma’am. New York Times online. Not free though. [chuckles]

Interviewer: There’s one more thing that I want to ask you about today.

Miguel: Yes, ma’am.

Interviewer: What happened to get you deported?

Miguel: I have a bottle of gin right here. [chuckles] No. Okay, so I was in a mall. I was a little bit drunk, I started talking about politics to the wrong people. The police came. They were military. They told the…

Interviewer: They were military?

Miguel: They were military guys. I was speaking to them. We were just speaking about politics and I was just telling…

Interviewer: Where were you?

Miguel: In the mall. And I was just telling them how I respect what they do, but they’re an oppressive apparatus.

Interviewer: They’re an … a what?

Miguel: Oppressive apparatus. That’s the word that I used. The exact word that I used before I got deported. I told, “You know, I respect what you do. You know, you don’t know, but you are an oppressive apparatus. You do realize that, right?” And they’re like, “No, you know”, very patriotic. “No” and this and that and you kind of smell like alcohol. I’m just going to leave. I left. Right before coming outside, the police were there and were like, “Hey, we had some complaints that you were bothering folks here. You were bothering fellow military”, you know, “Let me search you”. I had a bottle of gin. Stupid. That’s me.

Interviewer: Word for word.

Miguel: So, I had a bottle of gin — he saw it, “Hey, you’re coming downtown with me”. And I told him, “Well, if you do this, there will be a lot of repercussions that you don’t understand what’s going to happen”. I was already warning him, I’m going to get deported. I told him the whole picture, “I’m going to separate from my mom, you know. Just so you can keep that in mind”. Because police officers can use their judgment and I had police officers that let me go. This guy was a rookie. This guy was into his job. “I’m just trying to do my job”. And then I got pissed off and I told him, “I hope you can sleep well at night, because you don’t understand what’s going to happen. You really do not understand the gravity of this”. So, yes, I went to ICE, born in Mexico, now I’m here because of that.

Miguel: Not listening to my dad. My dad told me not to go outside. Because he knew that I was very — I like to speak about politics. I like to speak about politics, and you can get in trouble. You can get deported. He told me that, those exact same words.

Interviewer: He told you not to go outside? What do you mean? Told you not to go and get drunk?

Miguel: Not go outside… Well, he kind of knew what I was going to do, right? It was my day off. He knew I was going to drink some alcohol and maybe be loose with my tongue, right? And that’s exactly what happened. Didn’t go to a bar, went to a store, drank a little bit. Made me feel good. I wasn’t being aggressive with anybody. So, you know, I was kind of … I drank, but I wasn’t aggressive. I was just more talkative than anything. Very talkative. You know, it’s kind of weird, you know. But, yes, that’s what happened, and you know I drank alcohol. A little bit tipsy. I talked to these military people, got them pissed off, they called the police, police got me, they found an open container, “Let’s go to downtown”.

Miguel: That’s why I’m here, because of alcohol. Mostly not because of alcohol, I think mostly because of, you know, being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I drank alcohol in bars and spoke to people, they were pretty rational, and we had some very nice conversations in the bar. You know, I learned a lot.

Interviewer: Maybe telling a vet that he was part of an oppressive state…

Miguel: Right, a veteran. Yes, that’s true. That was my bad. [chuckles] Right? Now in retrospect, it’s like, yes, you shouldn’t do that, you know. There’s no need for you to tell them that. Maybe that’s a conversation you need to have with a professor of a university or maybe like yourself, you know. But not a veteran because that… Are you a veteran yourself?

Interviewer: No, but I’m a professor of a university.

Miguel: You’re a professor of university, okay, so maybe that’s a good conversation with somebody that maybe has that same idea. Right? [chuckles] But not to a veteran, right? I feel…

Interviewer: Maybe not, if you’re undocumented.

Miguel: Exactly, what was I thinking, right? But I thought I was the king of the world.

Interviewer: With a bottle of gin.

Miguel: With a bottle of gin. But just so you can know the level of confidence that I had. My parents were thinking about, “No, you know you can get deported. Be careful”. Very careful. I wasn’t careful. I was too confident. I thought that being deported was the last thing that was going to happen to me. And it happened to me. Somebody that took advantage in the States, went to university, you know, was a good student, you know. Did really good, I was a Sunday school teacher, as well. And had very good conversations with people, but anybody can get deported. You have to follow the rules, right, you know. I would tell people not to do that, if you’re living there undocumented. Try to do the right thing.

Interviewer: So, I have one more question for you.

Miguel: Yes, ma’am.

Interviewer: Kind of a reflection and then I’ll let you go. I’d like to write about the US’s loss and Mexico’s gain. Why deporting people is a loss for the US and a gain for Mexico.

Miguel: Yes ma’am. Absolutely.

Interviewer: How would you write that piece? What would you say?

Miguel: What would I say? I would say that the US is giving to Mexico human capital for free. Right? Giving human capital for free because of irrational politics. Because of politics, because of politics that might have some sort of racist undertones. I don’t know. They’re deporting human capital, they’re I guess just giving away money to Mexico, right? Human capital. That’s very strange. They’re deporting human capital. They’re giving, they’re importing these great assets for free. Which is good, for Mexico. It’s bad for the US. But because of this backward politics.

Miguel: So, I would paint something. I would paint a picture of that. You know, this kind of caveman. I would paint a caveman and then just throwing away dollars to Mexico, right or something. Something along those lines, you know of backward politics not realizing that they’re deporting human capital.

Interviewer: So, in that human capital, are we talking, we’re talking about people who are, like people who speak English. What about the values they come back with? Those experiences, is this something that Mexico gains from its migrants?

Miguel: Absolutely.

Interviewer: How, can you talk just a little bit about that?

Miguel: Yes ma’am. On the inside in terms of the American mentality. What made America so good? Entrepreneurs. Entrepreneurship, that hands on, that being proud of your country, putting Mexico first. These American ideas, putting Mexico first, innovation, innovating, insight, you can potentially make Mexico independent from the US and not shining their boots anymore. You know, if you have these young people getting into these… But the thing is, getting them into this, you know, political atmosphere. Getting them interested in this.

Miguel: And Mexico could be fundamentally changed. It could be another America, or even better. And I think it could be a little bit better. Because we have both worlds, right? But yes, we’re bringing insight. What made America so great, you know, could make Mexico great again, because we bring the ideas. The ideas are what’s important really. The abstract, the intangible. That’s what solidifies eventually into something. And it can solidify into an independent, pluralistic Mexican society, that puts Mexico first. And it’s going to be a competition to America, to the US, you know.

Interviewer: You just gave me my title. Making Mexico great again.

Miguel: Making Mexico great again. There you go, there’s the title right there. [chuckles] Awesome.

Interviewer: Thank you so much.

We later interviewed Miguel again in 2022.

Interviewer: We really appreciate you coming back and doing this interview again.

Miguel: Thank you. It’s always exciting to share and thank you for being interested in the story.

Interviewer: So it’s been three years. It’s been quite a while. Lots has changed in the world. What’s some of the things that’s changed with you?

Miguel: What’s changed with me, now I’m living with my girl. Back then, I was just living with my mom and my brother. Now I’m living with my girl, living the married life, still working in the call center. But now there’s changes. Now I’m more of a family man. Since my mom and dad came back, I’m living with my mom, my dad and my brother together with my girl. My dad brought the dog from the U.S., so that’s great. I mean, it’s almost like a dream to be honest because that’s my past, my dad, Dietrich, the German Shepherd that I used to go out and walk with, now he’s here. Now my past is my present. So it’s exciting. My dad brought a lot of stuff from the U.S. that was ours, that we used to use, shoes, clothing, and the smells. My wallet was intact. My dad brought my wallet that was intact. It still had all the receipts from when I was living in the U.S. So it is exciting, it gave me a lot of power.

All these memories to not forget where I come from. So pretty much what’s changed is living with the family now, living with my mom, dad, my brother, the dog, and now my life is more of a family man. I go for the tortillas, I go for the sweet bread. I shop around, just a family man now.

Interviewer: Can you tell me about how you met your wife?

Miguel: My wife, I was her English teacher. I taught her English. I taught her English and then one thing led to the other, we started going out, she started inviting me to Coyoacan which I love now, it’s my favorite place in the world now. You should go. You’re going to like it. I have a feeling you’re going to like it.

Interviewer: You can tell me the address later.

Miguel: Yeah, I’ll tell you. Central Coyoacan, if you put in Didi or even Uber, you’ll find it fast. Central Coyoacan. And it’s beautiful because you have Carlos’s house really close by and it’s very cultural. It’s like this house is … That whole town is so artistic. You have people painting, you have people singing and you have tourism. So she took me to Coyoacan, and she bought me chicharon cuero, which is so good with lemon.

Interviewer: I love chicharones.

Miguel: You like that?

Interviewer: It’s so good.

Miguel: Yeah, it’s good. So she got my heart with that and that’s how we met and now we’re living together. She’s been with me literally through thick and thin. She’s been through hard times, good times. She’s always been there. So I’m always with her. I love her. I like being with her.

Interviewer: Were you with her during the pandemic?

Miguel: Yeah.

Interviewer: How was that?

Miguel: It was exciting in the sense that I had to stay home, but it was a sad moment. It was a pretty sad moment not being able to go out and do things, but I was able to do projects. To be able to do exercise. I started doing exercise, calisthenics. I started doing calisthenics, I started running with my dog all the time. And it was cool, it was like, if it was back in North Carolina doing … What is it? Track and–

Interviewer: Track and field.

Miguel: Track and field, like doing that, it was cool. And my dad brought me all my old jerseys from my high school and I was wearing them and I was running with my dog and it was cool. It’s like if I stepped back in time, literally that’s time travel.

Interviewer: You were reliving your past.

Miguel: I was reliving my past but in Mexico, it was crazy. Just running and then not forgetting my gym teacher, what he would tell us not to give up, never give up like that Navy seal mentality, never give up. So that was my mentality. The pandemic brought that up. I was able to go back to my roots and relive that experience in the U.S. wearing my old clothes and running with Dietrich. It was pretty cool. Just that experience. That’s what I did mostly, exercise, worked from home. I’ve been working from home already two years. So I stayed home working from home. So my routine with the pandemic now, is just now I work from home, I’m a family man. I’m mostly with the family working from home. I really don’t go out as much as I used to. Back then I used to go out a lot.

Interviewer: And so when your dad came back and brought the stuff in the U.S., did you have a moment where it was very emotional?

Miguel: Yeah, it was, extremely. I even told my dad a hundred times that I love him. I mean, because you’re here in Mexico, right? And then you think about your family and you say, man, I never told my dad that I loved him. All the things that I had and I never took advantage of them. So you feel bad and now you have your dad here, you’re able to tell him that. I took advantage because I couldn’t wait to tell him that when I was here and I didn’t have him. So when he came back, and I was putting my old jerseys, the smell is crazy, the smells were there. And the dog, the same smell from the dog, the Mexican house smelt like the U.S. house for a little bit. It was crazy from all the things that we left, that he brought, because my dad brought all types of things, TV, things that we had. Pretty much the whole house, he brought it. It was crazy.

Interviewer: How did he bring it?

Miguel: It was in like a U-Haul, like a big U-Haul. He brought everything and he drove it.

Interviewer: From LA?

Miguel: He drove it from the border and they charged him a lot of money though, a lot. 11,000 pesos.

Interviewer: Oh wow.

Miguel: But he came with the dog. When I saw the dog, when I saw my dad, when I saw the things that we used to wear, when I saw my wallet and it had all the things that I was doing, it’s very philosophical, it’s crazy. My brain works differently. I’m very visual, so I start imagining myself in the U.S. And then the little cards that people used to give me, the people that I met and their cards that I had, I still had their cards. So it was pretty cool, man. I don’t know how to explain it. It was magical to be honest.

Interviewer: So when you saw your wallet, what were you envisioning that you were doing?

Miguel: At a jazz cafe or a jazz restaurant because I saw the little business card and it said jazz, and then you get a brunch. So you go and pay like, I think it was like $30, you listen to jazz and you have brunch. So I pictured myself eating brunch, listening to jazz. It was amazing. And then high school memories came, like track and field came back. I wasn’t in track and field, but my coach would make us do track and field as part of the … I wasn’t in the team or anything but we would do it as part of the curriculum for gym, we would do track and field. And then I remember the trailblazers, they called themselves the trailblazers, I remember, the team. And so it’s crazy. And then the jerseys that say trailblazers. I’m wearing the jersey that say trailblazers and also a little boy scout thing that I had when I was in boy Scouts, my dad still had it.

And the little pouch they say what it represents, all the little signs. I mean, it was just a relearning process, like kind of structuring myself a little bit, further structuring who I am, where I come from. And yeah, pretty much that’s what I was doing.

Interviewer: How did the pandemic affect your whole family? Because I know you live with your whole family right now.

Miguel: Well, it made my dad come to Mexico for some reason. The pandemic made my dad come here to Mexico and then he brought the dog and now the family’s together. So that was the biggest change.

Interviewer: Why did he come back?

Miguel: I don’t know. It’s weird. He didn’t need to come back, but he came back. He came back and really what he wanted to do is save my brother. He didn’t want my brother to get involved with negative things because he was kind of getting involved with negative things, drinking, becoming kind of alcoholic a little bit because of the same thing. But now it’s like the family’s back together and it’s almost like we’re in that house in the U.S. It’s crazy. And I understand that. It helped us to be united, to have the family back together. And so my dad now he’s working in call centers as well. I got him a job at a call center and we’re just living that type of life.

Interviewer: You guys work at the same office?

Miguel: Yeah.

Interviewer: That’s cool.

Miguel: And I help him out. So I help him out in the job. He’s way advanced already because I already let him know the whole brief. I debrief him. And so he already knows what to do. So it helps him out and that’s the mentality now, helping each other out as much as possible. My brother, my mom, everybody’s together, including my wife, all together working hard.

Interviewer: So I’m not sure if the marriage process was the same as what I think about in the U.S. because it was called something different, right?

Miguel: Yeah. They call it here union libro. Here it is very common that people don’t get married. People just get together and they just live together.

Interviewer: And so did you do like a ceremony or anything like that?

Miguel: No, no ceremony. Maybe in the future we’ll do a ceremony. But we don’t really need to do one, we already know that we live with each other and we have to take care of each other and just the experience and the struggle, that’s the ritual. Everything else is just the ritual. To me, what really represents the marriage is you’re working hard at it, making it work every day because you could do the ritual, then at the end you get divorced. I mean, it’s worthless.

Interviewer: Yeah. Again, it’s been three years. How have you adjusted to Mexico in that time span?

Miguel: My girl helped me to adapt. Going to quinceaneras, going to parties, family parties. Mexicans like to celebrate and drink and eat. They’re like Jewish people, they’re like the gypsies. They do parties for like three days straight, drinking, eating. So there you meet a lot of people and they do it for various reasons. Somebody turned 15, they’re sweet 15, in the U.S. is sweet 16. Here, they do the sweet 15 and then they do other … She’s three years old or your mom, she turned 61. So that helped me. My girl taking me to places that tourists don’t go. So taking me to the marketplace where everybody’s screaming and talking and all that helps, getting involved, getting mixed with the culture helps. That’s what helped me.

Even though I think I’m super Mexican. I think I’m the biggest Mexican, but people here, they recognize that I’m not. I mean I am, but they recognize that I wasn’t raised here because they tell me right away, hey your accent. Because I think my accent is Mexican and it’s like, no, your accent is not Mexican. You do sound like a foreigner. I think I sound Mexican, but people they recognize that I wasn’t raised here. Even though I’ve been adapting, the accent is never going to go away. I’m still a Pocho, my words come out differently in Spanish.

Interviewer: And how has that impacted you? Like have you come to terms with that?

Miguel: Yeah. I don’t get mad because then I correct them in English and now we’re even. And they make a lot of mistakes. Even in my job, you got people that are like … If you have 70% English or 60% English, you’ll get the job. And with me, I tend to correct my… At first, I was shy to correct them, but then they correct me without any problem, then I can do the same thing. So I have been doing the same thing, correcting them. So I don’t feel bad. Everybody has limitations, I’m learning. Maybe I need to read more Spanish, no doubt. But all my books are in English because my dad brought a bunch of books from the U.S. All types of books so now we have a big library, a big book shelf. So yeah, pretty much.

Interviewer: So what’s a couple of things that you’re still struggling with that you haven’t overcome yet?

Miguel: That’s a good question. The mentality, I still have the American mentality. So maybe in certain circumstances, my mentality, my rugged individualism offends somebody.

Interviewer: And the survey you were telling me about, the bus lines and how everyone stays to one line. Can you tell that story?

Miguel: I still do that. For example, you’re walking and there’s people in front of you, but there’s space on the other side, all you simply need to do is just say, excuse me. A lot of people don’t do that. They’d rather walk behind the person. But because I walk really fast, I get really frustrated when somebody’s not … I’m not getting any younger behind that person. So I skip them with a lot of education. I tell them, “Hey, excuse me, con permiso.” That’s what I do. Or for example, here in Mexico, you have two ticket stands and there’s a big line for one and then the other one, there’s no one. So what I do, I don’t follow the crowd, I go for the one that’s empty.

If they tell me, “Hey, the reason why people are not here is because there’s an issue then.” But the thing is I want to hear it first. And what the other folks do, they just assume since there’s a big line, that there’s something wrong with that ticket stand. And so they just go on that big line. I have also seen, it’s very weird how you’re walking up the stairs, right? Very electric stairs but none of them work, none of them work, but there’s a big line in one and the other one nobody’s walking. Nobody’s walking in one side and there’s one side and they’re all walking like sheep, literally they look like sheep and I’m walking on the other side. And then when I’m walking on the other side, I remember everybody looking at me like if I’m weird, because they assume that there’s something wrong.

What they do here, people don’t think for themselves, they’re lazy. They’d rather have somebody else think for them. But I’m very skeptical. Even when I’m asking for an address, it sounds kind of sketchy, I tend to ask somebody else if it sounds sketchy because maybe you’re not giving me the right address. I mean, that’s just the way I think. I think for myself, I like to think for myself.

Interviewer: Have you ever been given the wrong address?

Miguel: Yeah. I’ve been given wrong directions. For example, what door do we get off from in the Metro? And this guy was telling me, no, you get off from this side. But then I was doing the logic and I didn’t listen to him, I went on the other side. And yeah, the door opened from the other side, not from this side. So the guy made a mistake or he gave me the wrong information. Same thing with addresses. I have been on the wrong side of that, that I didn’t question it and then I’m walking nowhere and I get lost. So I tend to question my sources. If you tell me something, I’m not going to believe it right away. I’m going to investigate it.

Interviewer: Why do you think they do that to you?

Miguel: Well, I mean, it’s just how they were raised. This is how they were raised. They were raised in a way to walk with their head down. There’s a book that my uncle wrote. It’s called Los herederos de la conquista, the inheritors of the conquest. Mexico has been conquered and they’re still being conquered constantly. And the same things that conquer them back then, the Aztecs are conquering them now. Superstition, malinchismo, not loving their own kind, accepting the belief of others, not thinking for yourself, this is what they taught Mexicans. This is what they taught them, they didn’t teach them to think for themselves, to be rugged individualist. And in the U.S., we were getting this philosophy in movies from our teachers everywhere we saw these examples.

It was encouraged to think for yourself. It was encouraged to be individualist. There was nothing wrong with that. Here there is. Here you have to be a … It’s like a Japanese, they’re kind of Japanese here. They’re collective. It’s a collective way of thinking, collective way of doing things. Now it’s becoming a little bit individualistic the younger generations because they want to imitate the U.S. It’s simply an imitation of the U.S. because I believe that rugged individualism was born in the U.S., it was created in the U.S. because of the circumstances that the U.S. had. That’s why jazz had to be born in America because jazz is rugged individualism, it’s how democracy should work, letting everybody speak because in jazz, everybody gets a solo, even the bass player gets a solo. It’s amazing. Jazz teaches us what America should be, what America is. Is true democracy, rugged individualism, just a guy with a saxophone improvising, not thinking beforehand what he’s going to play. He’s just improvising. He’s making it up as he goes, that’s America to me.

They don’t have that here. And that’s a strong thing that’s important. And I wish that other Mexicans can apply it. And I think that if Mexico applied it, it will be dangerous for the government, it will be dangerous for other folks because then Mexicans will demand their rights truly not foolishly how these protests that they’re … You’re just doing graffiti, vandalizing.

Interviewer: There was one like a couple days ago where they cut off the whole street. They blocked the bus.

Miguel: That’s a game. That’s not really protesting. That’s not a real protest.

Interviewer: What is a real protest?

Miguel: Like what Martin Luther King was doing, what Mahatma Gandhi was doing, going to jail for what they … For example, these feminists, I have nothing against that, right? I like Simon Dewa, I love reading her. But these feminists in Mexico, they’re not truly protesting because they’re not truly experiencing the struggle, they’re just writing, vandalizing. But what about the women, has their situation changed? No. That’s going to happen through you going to jail or maybe protesting for real. I don’t know, writing laws or writing essays, saying intelligent things not just writing in walls. I really believe that in order to really protest, you got to have a form of intelligence or you got to have a leader that has a form of intelligence and that can articulate your struggle. Because if you don’t have somebody that can articulate your struggle or some sort of leader, then the people tend to not protest correctly. They tend to dissolve. Everybody needs leaders, that’s the problem.

Interviewer: Do you think that … Because to me that style of protest seems very U.S. centric, do you think that works in Mexico’s government?

Miguel: Maybe because it’s pretty rugged here, maybe they’ll disappear you. But I think in the city you can do that because you said it’s a luxury. Here you can have that luxury. It’s a highly developed city. You can have many luxuries. I’m playing chess now. I’m learning to become a grandmaster. So if I lived in another country, I wouldn’t have this ability. This is a luxury. So also protesting is a luxury that you could have here and it could work here in Mexico. It could work if you modify it a little bit and do you know what’s funny? Here in Mexico, you had those type of protests in the past, but it was by the upper classes that used the lower classes to fight their war for their own benefit.

Like, what’s his name? Miguel Valdes. Miguel Valdes, they see him as a hero of democracy, he was no hero of democracy. This guy, they took his privileges during those times and he protested against the crown and used the farmers, used the common people to fight his war. It’s kind of like the French revolution, the French revolution was started by a bunch of bourgeois and then they used the people to fight their war because they were taking away their benefits, right? I mean, it’s the same thing.

Interviewer: I mean, that sounds like every military conflict.

Miguel: Right?

Interviewer: Now that I think about it.

Miguel: Every revolution. That’s why I lost hope in those type of revolutions. I mean a true revolution, it’s the scientific revolution. That’s the only real revolution that existed.

Interviewer: And so, you talk a lot about like protests and stuff. Are you involved in any protests?

Miguel: No.

Interviewer: Have you thought about it?

Miguel: I’ve thought about it, but it’s dangerous here. Here’s one thing that is dangerous, if you protest here … A lot of journalists lose their lives here, it’s in the news currently. But I know that eventually I’m going to do it because my father’s a writer, my dad just wrote a book right now it’s called … What is it called? What is it called? Perpetual slavery. It’s a long title, but he writes about political issues. My uncle too. So I have it in my blood and I have good ideas. And I already wrote a lot of rough drafts in my laptop. So I know that eventually, I’m probably going to come out with a book. I mean, my life points to that. Even if I try to deny, even if I try to procrastinate and live a normal life of a husband, that philosophical mentality, it’s still there and I have the ideas.

And unfortunately, I haven’t put them into a concrete book or anything like that, but I had great ideas, really good ideas that are relevant to what’s going on right now. But you procrastinate, you’d rather play chess and beat a bunch of people in chess, feel good about yourself. And that’s it. But I know that eventually is going to come out. And what we’re doing right now is just feeding, you guys are just feeding what I already have in my brain.

Interviewer: You’re kind of doing the same thing here.

Miguel: Feeding each other. So the ideas will come out eventually, not right now, we got to give them some time I’m pretty sure they’re going to explode on a piece of paper, just like Stephen Hopkins. All these writers, eventually it explodes. They describe it as an explosion. I don’t know why. And it’s there, maybe it will explode, maybe I need to experience something, maybe I need to see something, hear something.

Interviewer: I mean, the future’s long, you got plenty of time.

Miguel: Exactly. Exactly. So I’m thinking of writing something, a philosophy. It’s like developing a philosophy, but we’ll see what it’s going to be, is most likely mixed with existentialism because I love it so much. And maybe I’ll write about that mentality, because that is an interesting subject in philosophy, your worldview. And that’s why I love Descartes because your worldview shapes the way you see the world and your worldview is shaped by ideas. So that’s why I love that question, sorry. How do I know what I know? And from there, I’m pretty sure I will understand something, maybe about the human condition, maybe just questioning what’s our human condition right now. Those are the questions that I’m thinking about.

Interviewer: It sounds like a lot to think about.

Miguel: It is.

Interviewer: It sounds like a deep thought thing you go through.

Miguel: For sure. That’s why I left it under the rug, it takes so much of your brain. You start thinking a lot, but eventually it blows up. It’s already blown up in a few poems, but I want it to blow up in something else, but we’ll see. I mean, these experiences are good with Anita.

Interviewer: So you’ve talked to me a little bit about your future plans and you’ve just mentioned about books and the philosophical thought and a lot of thought questions you need to go through to do that. What else is in your near future? What else are you planning so far?

Miguel: Go back to school. Maybe I’ll go back to school. I want to study on maybe political science or something like that. Get into political science.

Interviewer: I like political science.

Miguel: I think it’s one of the most relevant subjects, especially right now, to understand the human condition. But I want to mix it with philosophy. So I’m thinking of going back.

Interviewer: Go certainly do that.

Miguel: Right? And I love it. I love that subject. I hate math, I love political science. I excel in political science, but I want excel in math. Political science-

Interviewer: It’s a different part of your brain.

Miguel: It really is. I’m very creative in that aspect. So I think it’s a good environment. I think I would flourish in that type of environment. I’m thinking of that in the future and maybe not work for a call center no more. I don’t want to work for nobody no more. I want to be my own boss. That’s what I’m thinking. I picture myself as a writer living off writing, but that’s in the future. Right now, got to work in the call center. But maybe in the future, I’m thinking of just not working in a call center anymore, be freelance, just be free, not work for a boss anymore. I don’t want to work for a boss anymore. Telling me what to do, when to come in to work. I’m thinking maybe in the future, I don’t know, become my own boss, get a company, teach English.

Interviewer: Do you have any idea what the company would be?

Miguel: Maybe teach English or something. Teaching English. Learn things that you don’t learn in other schools, maybe learn expressions, learn different types of idioms. That’s what I’m thinking.

Interviewer: That’s super handy. Not even just in English, but even with communicating in all languages. Like having that cultural knowledge makes the experience seamless.

Miguel: Oh yeah. I agree. I’m thinking of that. I don’t want to work for somebody no more. It’s tiring giving your life to a company. And these companies are abusive, Verizon, AT & T, they don’t pay you as much. And it’s a form of evading taxes in a way too. They come here in Mexico, I don’t think they pay taxes. So it’s crazy. I kind of have a hate, love relationship with those companies. They give me money so I can live, but I can see the evil in them, how they just use you. You’re just a cog in the machine, just a number. They don’t pay you as much as Americans. We should get paid as much. If we’re providing the same service, why not? Why not get paid as much. So, I mean, there’s a lot of stuff going on that I see that kind of bothers me. And in the future, I’m thinking of becoming independent from any company, just me, my wife. We’ll see what happens. We’ll see what we think of because working for somebody, I don’t recommend it. It’s tiring.

Interviewer: So I have just one final question for you. What do you want the people listening to this interview to take away? What do you want your message to be from this?

Miguel: My message from this, treat everyone with respect. Treat everyone with respect and next time you see somebody, don’t judge them. Next time that immigrant that’s getting deported, it could be your father, could be your mother, could be your brother. For people to stop being foolish and stop being divided, stop being divided. We’re all working class. We are all working class people. Forget about Black, White, Latino, forget about that. Take that away. And judge people in terms of their thinking, in terms of their character, in terms of their way of speech to get rid of the white privilege and focus on people’s character. To make America multicultural because that’s what makes America great. Not being a segregist, not being a xenophobic. That’s not America. America’s always been about diversity and diversity makes America great. That’s why we’re always on top because of that.

And I speak as we because I still feel that there’s a part of me in the U.S. that hasn’t left, but I would really enjoy if we stop being divided and conquered and that the working class gets together because if the working class gets together, then that’s going to be our benefit. We’re going to be able to advance because the way they confuse us is through dividing, division is the greatest way to conquer people. And so we need to get rid of that start thinking is, we’re all brothers and sisters, to start thinking planetary. Don’t even think that you’re an American or a Brazilian-

Interviewer: Yeah. Like zoom out.

Miguel: … you’re planetary, let’s evolve to a planetary society. Why can’t we do that? And then eventually becomes stellar, becomes star wars. That’s a stellar society. There’s even Auguste Comte, he talked about three stages of civilization, right?

Interviewer: Yeah. And the last one is like harnessing the power of the sun or something.

Miguel: Of the sun, of the stars. The star wars, they’re the ones who harness the power of the stars. And then planetary, we’re not even planetary yet. Planetary is when you can control the planets. And obviously in the planetary society, it’s international. No more borders. That would be great. If we could live in a planetary, that’s how I know we’re kind of primitive a little bit. We haven’t evolved yet. We haven’t evolved to the planetary society, which I think is Star Trek. And I think planetary could be Star Trek, I’m not sure. But planetary controlling the earth, no borders and no countries, it’s just the earth, it’s planetary, we all have one passport. I mean, that will be great. Utopia maybe. I don’t know.

I’m pretty sure it’s possible in the future and maybe it will be in the future possible. A planetary society where you don’t see color, you don’t-

Interviewer: If the planet survives.

Miguel: Yeah. If the planet survives, but if not, then we might live in a primitive society, people chasing down other people with tortures. Maybe there’s a de-evolution, maybe we’re in a process of de-evolution. But I think that an evolved individual thinks in terms of planetary, thinks in terms of universals, and doesn’t think in terms of particulars. I think an intelligent evolved mind is universal. It’s universal. Let’s be universal. Let’s be brothers and sisters and take care of the earth together. But first we need to take care of each other. How are we going to take care of the earth and not take care of each other? We need to take care of each other, take care of the earth in advance together. Don’t discriminate, don’t divide yourself. That’s the key, no division. Divide and conquer, that’s the old technique.

Interviewer: Yeah. Divided we fall, united we stand.

Miguel: Yeah. Abraham Lincoln, a house divided cannot stand. He took it from the Bible, he was a Bible man. But a house divided cannot stand. We’re seeing it and it’s not standing, the U.S. is fragile. But yeah, I mean, that would be my message to the people.

Interviewer: Thank you so much.

Miguel: You’re welcome.

Leave a Reply Cancel Reply