Joseph I

Mexico City, Mexico

Joseph I

June 13, 2018

Interviewer: So Joseph, when did you go to the United States?

Joseph: I’ve been there since I was two years old.

Interviewer: And then, when did you come back?

Joseph: 22 years old.

Interviewer: How old are you now?

Joseph: 29. Well, I’ve been back on and off. Been firmly here in Mexico for about five years. But after I left the military, I came back here.

Interviewer: You were in the military in the United States?

Joseph: Yes.

Interviewer: So tell me. You grew up as an American, right?

Joseph: Yeah.

Interviewer: Where did you grow up?

Joseph: New York City.

Interviewer: Where in New York?

Joseph: Brooklyn, New York.

Joseph: Okay. I was in ___.

Joseph: Now it’s nicer. Back in the day, it was still gangs. It was still a lot of discrimination, Blacks against Hispanics, Hispanics against Hispanics. So, yeah.

Interviewer: So, growing up, you felt like you were an American.

Joseph: I didn’t know I was illegal until I actually applied to college.

Joseph: Yeah. So that was of a little trip and then-

Interviewer: Then you went to college?

Joseph: By the military. So I had three options. Lawyer told me, because my father didn’t register to pay taxes, that I couldn’t legally get my own papers started. So either I had to get married by an American citizen, have a baby by an American citizen, or join the military. So that’s whenever 9/11 was going on. And about a few years later, so that’s when I decided to join up. My brother joined when 9/11 was going on. He actually went to ____.

Joseph: And I was given the options. So I didn’t want a kid. I didn’t want a family, I didn’t want a wife. So I said the best option was the military. And military pays for the school. So I got a scholarship for NYU. After I went to apply for that, they renounced my scholarship because I was illegal. So I had to apply like everyone else, and lost my spot. But being in the military, we have certain leeways where you can actually get reassigned your spot that was given to you. So I didn’t lose a spot right there in the moment, but it was very hard to study and be in the military. The military had assumptions. I was stateside maybe four months, three months, or even weeks.

Interviewer: So you were trying to go to NYU while you were in the military.

Joseph: Yes. Most of it was virtual studies. Some of them were actually in-class studies. But after that, I actually was able to conclude university. But basically, the time that I came back, I would go to New York because I was in Fort Benning, Georgia. That’s where we were stationed out there, and I’m out of Virginia, Norfolk. We went to Fort Benning, Georgia because that’s an airborne school.

Joseph: Whenever I was stateside, I would have traveled to New York, get my classes, my exams, talk to my teachers, do everything I could in the time I was given. And if I was called upon, then I will come back and leave. That’s basically how I struggled.

Interviewer: And you graduated.

Joseph: Yes.

Interviewer: Congratulations.

Joseph: Thank you.

Interviewer: Wow. That’s great. What did you major in?

Joseph: Psychology.

Interviewer: Wow.

Joseph: Yes.

Interviewer: What a success story.

Joseph: Not really. I mean, people come and look at me and they don’t see your typical Mexican that was deported because of drugs or was deported because of gang fights or was deported because of the wrong place, wrong time. I actually came back because I gave up on the United States. There’s a lot of things that when you’re in the military, you see, you just keep it on the down low. And things you see over there, friends you see, friends you see leave, friends you see gone. And it’s just difficult to actually believe in a system that protects you while you’re in there, and does…supposedly cares about you, and brainwashes you. It’s very different when you’re on the outside.

Joseph: When you’re not needed anymore, or you gave up on being that military “all you can be” motto BS, it really changes you. I mean, there are certain jobs that tell you that you’re doing good for people, and there’s also the little flip coin where you see shit over there and you’re like, “Ugh, this is not what I signed up for.” And then you come back to the States, and you see ignorant people talk down on people about their rights, about their cultures, about their maybe situations. And it’s not enough for…it was not enough for me to stay there because in a literal sense, I gave up on humanity from the States because I saw so much more humanity from the people we were fighting, the people we were trying to kill, and other people around the world, that their mindsets were very different from American mindsets.

Joseph: I think the majority of Americans have that patriotic stigmatism inside of them. And they really don’t see outside of the borders, outside of the world. I mean the news, the media covers certain things, but it doesn’t really cover a lot of aspects of what can really change the mindset of everyone. There’s a famous book called on the Living the Society, where a quote was given from Buddha, where if you give up on society, when you lose faith in humanity, is when humanity is lost. So that has always been something positive to me. So, every time I can help someone out or orientate someone, I try and do it. I try and do the best to change their minds and actually see them a different world where they were brought up, basically. So yeah. It was difficult.

Interviewer: So was it really the military that changed your view of the United States?

Joseph: Yes. I lost my fiance in combat. She went MIA for about a month. We didn’t know…I didn’t know what was going on. We were about to get… we were engaged, and we were going to get married. And basically it’s things that happen, that communication doesn’t get to you fast enough. You really don’t know what MIA? What’s going on? They haven’t had the count, then people lose communication, she was stationed somewhere else. And as fast as you go somewhere else, the files are sent, encryptions or whatever. And it takes a while. So, whenever it was declared, it was just like…

Joseph: I mean, I lost my friends. I lost my best friend. And it was difficult to go through that process whenever you actually start losing brothers in arms because you live and you breathe and you bleed together. They’re your front-line family. You really had to trust your man to your left and your man to your right. If you don’t trust them, there’s no trust, then there’s no brotherhood.

Joseph: And that is what was taught to us since day one. I mean, you’ve had to be the best you can be to join certain squadrons. But whenever that happened to her, which is…I just started doubting everything. I started reliving, how some friends have PTSD, some friends are gone, their families didn’t get enough pay. They got a very shitty compensation for losing somebody.

Joseph: Then her as well, living my experience. As someone that was in there, you know what you signed up for, but you really don’t expect it. And whenever things happen unexpected that change your life, that you actually want to keep living, or you actually want to keep fighting for. And there was a motto there that says that, “It can either get you killed or can either make you live more.”

Joseph: So whenever that happened, I just broke down. Didn’t know what to do. I tried to just stay there for about a couple of months. Everything kept reminding me about her, every time we spent. And since I wasn’t really at home because of school and everything, she would travel with me. So she was the person that actually kept me sane.

Joseph: And whenever that happened, I just kinda lost it. I didn’t know where to go, what to do, what to think. Psychology teaches you that there’s always a mid and a start point. The end point is when you’re dead, but the mid can always reset. The start point can always jump to the mid without even any progression or anything going through it. So it was very difficult for me to actually leave the military because I left the military because of that decision too. And go to the real world and find out that there’s nothing you can do in the real world, because basically they trained you to become a certain person. And there’s not a lot of things you can do in the military, outside of civilian, besides being an officer or any kind of raising or anything that actually requires for tactical issues to be used in that society. And we were never taught to be businessmen. We were never taught to think as a different position. We were always taught to be analytic and decisions that would keep us alive and make sure that we got the job done.

Interviewer: So were you hoping that getting your degree would move you along to finding a position in society or was that-

Joseph: I was hoping it would, but I really mainly did it because my childhood wasn’t easy. My childhood was very tough as well. So the scars dumped me out whenever I finished everything. And I guess there was a part of me that we always want to travel. And so I did travel. I left the States. I started traveling. Didn’t know where to go. So, best option was Mexico because my family and my friends were really worried. They were worried that I would go to any part of the world and be sucked up. I’d be giving an opportunity for someone to actually change my mind because at that moment I was very angry with the United States. So my friends would be thought that if I left anywhere to Europe or anywhere to China or stuff like that, that I could easily be given that BS working against the system, stuff like that.

Joseph: So a lot of my family voted. My friends also were very lenient for me to come to Mexico because I have family here that I haven’t met since I was two years old, I didn’t even know them. So I decided to come here and I traveled Mexico when I first got here, started meeting all the kind of family I had. And I decided to stay, I mean, I decided to say because it was closer to be with my niece and nephew. And it’s closer to my family, it’s closer to what I’m used to. I do go to visit sometimes, but right now it’s just trying to find myself. The first year I was here was very tough. When I let my family down and my friends down, I did everything imaginable that was not as a good person to do or what I was taught to do.

Joseph: I use what I was taught to actually do bad things here. And after that, it was downhill until, people who love me came down and kinda set me straight. And they told me that my father-in-law really talked me into it and saying that I had to change because if I was still here it’s because I want to be, and I’m still here because I want to keep moving on. So I’ve been trying to move on slowly. I’ve been trying to set my life straight here. I guess all the rebellion that I was supposed to do when I was 15 or 12, I kind of redid it here in Mexico. And I just kind of learned that I had to do something a little bit different in my life and also in memory of my friends, in memory of her that I had to give myself an opportunity to actually give my true potential.

Joseph: So I changed my life around here and I started working in different jobs and good jobs and always helping out anyone I can, if I can go ahead and shed some light, I always see kids in the street or people who come back from the States who want that thug life or who were in a thug life. Think about that mindset. Just tell him like, “Hey man, I don’t talk like you. But trust me, I was just like you when I was 12, I was just like when I was 13, it’s not a way to go.”

Joseph: I mean if you want a family, you want a future, you just aspire to something better to be yourself and just get the opportunity to actually grow into something that was not drilled into you in your hood. That you are meant to be a doctor, scientist, lawyer, whatever you want to be. You’re in the hood. You’re driven to be a drug dealer, a drug addict, a drug hustler, swinging, doping, everything, gang banger. So most kids that come here are not orientated, or they don’t have that guidance or they feel that they are man enough to handle the situation instead of actually analyzing their position and saying, I don’t need to fight. I need to just become, do me, grow and actually make myself proud of yourself.

Interviewer: So that sounds wonderful. So what jobs do you have now that you’re proud of?

Joseph: Well, software engineer job is right now what I’m actually been doing. I’ve started a job thanks to ___, that is right now one of the good companies to work here in Mexico City is actually ranked amongst the top 10. And it’s awesome. They have a different culture mindset. They’re not segregated. They have an open mindset of how you learn, how you adapt, who teaches you, who goes with you if you have a problem, they’re always taking care of you. They’re always asking you are you okay. Recently I got sick because of some of the food here and they were very understanding. They were like, you don’t need to be here, go home. The code is going to be here. The work’s going to be here, but if you’re not okay, then we can’t have you here because you can’t work like this. You understand that you’re not a hundred percent.

Joseph: So just go home and recover and come back. And that was kinda like the best part, because some other jobs they really treat you like a slave. [Chuckles]. They tell you, “Oh you got to work.” Doesn’t matter if you’re sick or if you’re sick, you can go to the medical institutions here in Mexico City but which are all horrible. And you lose more if you actually get sick, than you actually go to work. So that’s the shitty society that we live in Mexico. But there’s compensation when actually you start working for what you want, going and studying and actually doing courses that will give you an empowerment in Mexican society to let you know, “Hey, I am ready. I am able to do this job. And I’m just as qualified as anyone who actually did study here or actually does have a major here, and I can actually show it to you.”

Interviewer: That’s great. That’s great. So when you came back, did you have a visa where you could go back and forth from the States?

Joseph: I’m a resident.

Interviewer: You’re a resident of the US?

Joseph: Yes.

Interviewer: So you came back voluntarily because you were disillusioned with the US?

Joseph: Yes.

Interviewer: And when you came, you came to see family, you started with family?

Joseph: Yeah. Came for family. And also because I never really got to the vacations that I wanted. So I mean, Mexico has a lot of beaches, a lot of pretty beaches. So I would suppose I seen them too, so that’s nice.

Interviewer: But it was tough. The adjustment was tough because you were still mourning-

Joseph: Yeah. It was like, you’re going to evolve a lot of bad decisions along the way. And the worst part is because I did not know Spanish. I actually grew up in a Spanish household where that wasn’t really used. It was always English. So whenever that happened, I came to Mexico and I felt that I didn’t have the social skills or the communication skills to actually interact with someone here. I would literally use my phone to actually show pictures or show the translator saying what I wanted, what I needed. So it was very tough. But the bad thing about it is that the good people that are here fortunately don’t really know English and the bad people that are here do know English. So whenever you start walking around, start going around, started going sightseeing, you find that kind of English vibe there, and you start talking to them, I felt good because it sucked not to being able talk to somebody.

Joseph: I really would just stare at people and try and learn their language and something that is my language that I’d never really learned. And those people who have spoken English were like, “Hey, it’s another person who was lost, let’s orientate him to our lifestyle.” So that’s what happened there. And slowly but surely I started learning Spanish, started moving around. I didn’t know how to move around because the government here, doesn’t give you a lot of aid in letting you know what to do or where to go or how to do it, or actually translate the papers to you.

Joseph: Because I mean, everyone, if you ask around, you can get somewhere, but it also depends on the government as well to actually say, “Hey, there are some Mexicans that were never raised here, but there are from here and that need that translation in English to let them know what can we just do, how to do it and where to go and how much is it going to cost them and not get swayed into something that’s not the correct way, or that you pay more for a document that’s not supposed to be paid for, stuff like that.

Interviewer: Yeah. You get taken advantage of.

Joseph: Exactly.

Interviewer: So how long did it take you to learn the language and pull yourself out of your grief and your bad decisions?

Joseph: A year and a half it took me to actually change my life since I was here.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Joseph: And after that, then I started working on getting my documents, getting my papers. And it really did take me a year and a half to actually change who I had become in Mexico. And I look back at myself and I feel disappointed because I had actually certain values, certain cultures, certain things that were taught to me. And that was shown to me also in the military that I should have not let the grief get the best of me, but sometimes, your mind just plays nasty little tricks on you, that you don’t know what’s going on, and you really want to escape what you were taught. You want to escape everything. You just want that pain to go away. You want that whole suffering of what’s going on to just go away. I guess the easier decisions are always the hardest to come back out of them.

Interviewer: So when you look back on your time in the US, you were there for 20 years, right?

Joseph: 22, 23.

Interviewer: 22, 23 years. You told me about the bad. Was there any good?

Joseph: School, friends, family. Best memories of me are always with my friends. I wasn’t really close to my family. My family was very difficult to live with. The only reason I actually was a very good scholar was because my dad didn’t like for us to come home with a B, he would say that he was laid off, he would work his ass off for us to actually learn something in school. And that a B is not worth it, that he wanted A’s. So if we did get a B, it was a beating for sure. I’m not talking about the little slap on the wrist it was a real good beating.

Joseph: My mom was, she didn’t have a lot of things to do. She’s always been a hustler. So she always sold products to show up catalogs, stuff like that, like little household items. And she has always been very resentful that she came to the States. And it’s been very hard living with that person because she’s always bitter. And that bitterness was always giving out, and beatings and yelling. So since I was little, I always try to stay away from home.

Joseph: I started working since I was 11, because I didn’t want to stay home anymore. So I started finding my own way of money because my father taught me that if I wanted things I had to pay for it. So they would never give me allowance, they would never give me money, they would just only give me enough for the transportation. And when the New York started giving the school aid, I mean, they didn’t give me any more money, so they wouldn’t give me anything. And after that, it was just very difficult to actually live with both of those types of people. When I grew older, my father was very scared of me because of what I had become. He knew that he couldn’t push me around anymore. He knew that very clearly. And I let him know that too, because I was not very happy with him after seeing him after six years.

Joseph: So he tried to impose that father authority. And I told him that, no, he lost the privilege. My mother also learned the hard way that she wasn’t able to talk to me anymore the way she did when I was younger. And I went through every kind of thing imaginable by mom. My mom threw plates, tools, bamboo sticks, anything she could really get her hands on to make her point that she was not to be messed with. She even threw an iron at our heads once. I remember me and my brother ducking at that. So I guess all those memories and all those childhood relations actually made me very aware that…since very little that I was in here for myself, that I didn’t count nobody.

Joseph: And the beauty part was when I met my friends, friends that kinda had the same situations or were living the same lifestyles, we grew too close together. We were always working together or working to become better, working to get out of the hood, not become those kinds of children, prodigies of being a drug dealer or the gang bangers, stuff like that. So that was really cool. So we actually had this kind of friends and that was the best part growing up, but having to share that suffering with someone else, that’s probably going through the same thing or differently, but in the same, we’re all suffering. And out of that suffering, you make a unity and you make friendships. You make something bad good. And my best memories have always been playing, hanging with all my friends, parties with my friends, doing things with all my friends that have been my best memories. I have good memories of my family when we have reunions, but they’re very little, but the best memories have always been that I can count on friends.

Interviewer: And are you still in contact with them?

Joseph: Oh yes. I’m still-

Interviewer: That is great. So when you look forward, I mean, you’ve had a tough life, a really tough life, and you know, the country where you grew up, you feel denied…you’re disillusioned with that country. And you’re now in a new country. What are your dreams for you now? What are your dreams?

Joseph: To become a good enough programmer to actually do a startup and get the opportunity that many people don’t get. A lot of people are really smart here. A lot of people have the skills and mindsets to become a good businessman, a good teacher, stuff like that. So basically be able to contribute the same way. All the posts have been attributing to young minds to let them know that there’s a different way to live life here. And that’s actually what I want to do. I’ve always wanted to do that. In some little way, I’ve always tried to help someone find a job. Someone find a way to get things. So that’s my idea.

Joseph: My dream and hope is to one day actually have a company that’s actually ran with immigrants. Doesn’t matter if they’re deported, not deported or not even from Mexico or United States, anyone who wants to come and work who has the time to show it because we’re not the only country that’s in mourning. Right now, Guatemala, Argentina are going through rough times; the economy is going through a very hard time and there’s kids and people out there that actually are very smart.

Joseph: Get the word out there that there are places in certain countries that are willing to invest in kids and willing to invest in certain futures. As long as you actually put the time in, put the effort, put the work in, and you actually show that you’re committed to actually becoming something else and wants to change your life around. So my idea is to have a job or work environment that we can give that to those people.

Interviewer: That’s great. It sounds like you have the capabilities and the drive to do it.

Joseph: Yes.

Interviewer: Do you hope to have a family or do you have a family of your own?

Joseph: My guess somewhere in my head, I’m still hurt. I’ve had partners here, but I have never really committed myself. And my last relationship shed some light on that. It was very hard to hear the truth and to actually say, wow, you’re right. Usually I’m never wrong. Usually I’m always the kind of person that is very analytic and chooses his battles that he knows he’s going to win. And if I can’t win that battle, I’ll learn it and make sure I can win it. So whenever that happened, it was a little shot to the head, made me think. So right now, I don’t want a family. I do strive on having a family one day. It is a dream of mine. But I guess I actually want to give myself time to become a better person, a better man, and actually first complete my training because I’m still studying, I’m still learning. So I want to be able to go ahead and have a good foundation on my job, that that foundation can go ahead and provide for something else and also provide for a family.

Interviewer: Is there anything that you would like to say—we’re going to finish up now—but is there anything that you haven’t covered that you would like to say to the people that will read this report about being a returning migrant?

Joseph: I guess it’s just really to open their minds, brain and horizons. I actually take the time to meet people, learn people because nowadays you see social media, people are stuck in social media. I mean, we don’t have the good old times where people actually sit down and talk and actually meet and learn about each other, unless you’re actually trying to become a partner or stuff like that. Even whenever you’re going out with your friends, just talk, stop being on social media, stop posting pictures. Yes, pictures are going to last forever, but those memories are going to last longer. And I guess just to always keep an open mind and help people in need.

Interviewer: Great. Well, thank you.

We spoke to Joseph again in 2022

Interviewer: I wanted to start off by thanking you for coming in. I know I already had a chance to talk to you by doing the survey. And I just want to say, not just for me, but for the rest of the team, that we really appreciate that it’s been such a long time and you still remember us. You still want to take part in what we’re doing and it doesn’t go unnoticed. We appreciate that a lot.

Joseph: Thank you.

Interviewer: And I know sometimes it’s hard to talk about these things or specific memories. And so we just want to make sure that you share what you’re comfortable with.

Joseph: Yeah, definitely.

Interviewer: All right. It’s been three years since your last interview. What’s some of the things that’s changed?

Joseph: I was a developer. I am a project manager now. Got my degree. I’m a little bit more settled in as far as where I was originally back at that point of time. A little bit more sustainable for work purposes and also time purposes. Have a car. I am about to buy an apartment.

Interviewer: Can you tell me about your journey in the tech world so far?

Joseph: It’s been very hard and interesting to get into that. I know studying was just as, or worse when I was in NYU, because it’ll be working and school. And in this case, it was difficult because most of the school works since it was an intensive one year. They didn’t give you enough time to work so it was difficult making ends meet. We had a compensation thing going on, I think they would give you maybe 500, 800 pesos a week, something like that, up to a 1,000 I think, to help with transportation, food, stuff like that, because they knew that you weren’t able to go ahead and work while you were there. The good thing was that I had some money saved up. I was somewhat okay. We were better off than most of my other friends.

From there it was just difficult learning a language or something that you quite didn’t just understand because if you go speak to an administrator they talk to you about a lot of process, rules, regulations. You go to accounting, numbers, laws, stuff like that, which I would feel that is a little bit more easier to understand because it’s something that you do day to day. And programming is not something that we did day to day because we didn’t know about it. We just got into that world. It’s a little bit more difficult to adjust to it. It was a lot of nights that I didn’t sleep to just hand in projects, codes, anything of the sort, but it’s been very gratifying that all that work actually did pay off because sometimes whenever you do a lot of work, it doesn’t pay off. It’s very good to go ahead and get that paid off.

Being a developer changed my point of view of what I can actually do here in Mexico and also working for a company that works for the US. I’m still kind of at home because I speak with native English, native people from… US persons that are there. Sorry about that. Brain fart. It’s a little bit nice to come back into that culture because the Mexican culture of way of working is very micromanagement and they just use or exploit you the most they can without really taking care of your needs versus American culture and certain jobs. And especially in the tech world, they do take care of you. They do hassle you, they do put a lot of things on your plate, but it’s a little bit more of a, “All right, you’re messing up. How can we get you there? What do you need or what do you need us to do? What do you need to do? Or what tools skills you need to actually become that person we need you to become?”

It’s a little bit more efficient way of working with them. And then once I stopped doing the programming part and I started doing the administrative part, I just got more into it because when I was a developer, I used to do eight hours. And as my boss says like, “If you just do eight hours, you’re doing eight hours.” And the only reason you would stay here longer is because you didn’t work your eight hours or you didn’t walk around or find things out or ask around. And then the project manager it’s not that you don’t ask around.

It’s just that people take too long to respond. Sometimes you feel like a teacher going to the kindergarten saying, “All right, kids, relax. You got to work. You got to advance.” It’s actually been nice, been a good transition from call centers. It’s definitely a plus because I don’t have to… I hear nagging and everything, but in a different level of make sure to work instead of actually hearing personal problems with why they can’t pay bills, stuff like that. It’s actually a good transition from that tech world.

Interviewer: Can you tell me about how being a tech developer changed your perspective?

Joseph: I guess that we’re not just… It’s not in stone what we can accomplish here in Mexico city, for example, over here, a lot of people they tell you that you can only be call center. You can only be a chauffer. You can only do manual labor work. And it’s not that case. If you open your doors and you also go through doors and do the work, then you can actually accomplish different things. I’ve actually had a lot of friends that see me how I am right now. And they’re like, “Yo, that’s nice, dude. Can I get into it?” And then it’s just like, “All right, but you got to go ahead and do.”

I explained to them exactly what I went through, how I suffered, what I went through, and how overcame and everything there and once they hear that, they are like, “Oh no. I can’t stop working because I got a family. I can’t stop doing this.” And it’s not like, “Yo, but the plus side is that if you actually do the sacrifice and you actually make ends meet just that time, you’re good.” You’re going to be good. Look at us. Look at some of the friends that I have. Look at the friends that we have in common that actually that… Because one friend actually who convinced me to that program, he just told me like, “Yo, there’s a program, blah blah blah. You want to come?” I was like, “Eh, it’s free beer.” Because he actually was giving me free beer and a pizza.

But once they explained to you, it was just like, “Oh, Sam, yo, this is something I want to do.” We got an interview, we got everything and with my charm, I was like, “Ah, I got it.” Because I actually had to go ahead and yet be profiled, see if you were good for the fit. And I think everything that always stands out is my mindset. That changed, adapt and overcome part where if you got a problem, how do you solve this problem? Do you go over, you go through it, you go around it? Well, depends on the best course of action. And you can’t always do the same problem, same things, sometimes, but it’s going to be iterations that won’t work. That’s a part of it where most of friends don’t want that. They don’t want to go ahead and be pushed that hard. They want to take baby steps, like, “All right, I’m working in this call center. I’m going to save up 20Gs in four, six months. And then I’ll go ahead and see blah, blah, blah.”

And then after that it’s just like, “If you do that, you’re not going to go ahead and do it.” I’m telling you because I was a hard thinker where I was like, “You know what? I’m going to wait before I can do this. And meanwhile, I’m going to keep doing my thing and then I’ll do it.” And once that point comes, I never did it because I never focused myself to actually get to that point. That’s the same thing you’re doing. You’re going to be harsh on yourself for not being there. But that’s about it.

Interviewer: Why do you think people are in the mindset that they can only work at call centers?

Joseph: I guess when you come here, that’s the culture. And also because… Well, I don’t know. Now, I know how to defend myself. But when I first got here, the doors were closed. I didn’t know how to do my papers. I didn’t know how to go and get about my recertification from the States. I didn’t know how to do a lot of things. And that makes you frustrated. And once that frustration kicks in and takes over, it’s just like, “Damn I can’t do anything else but this.” Because a lot of people, they didn’t finish junior high. A lot of people didn’t finish high school. A lot of people didn’t finish college, but they have a certain education level. And when they get here, it’s like, “I can’t go back to school. I can’t do it because I need to work.” And the jobs that you get here are very hard labor works or just long hours. In Cuautla, there’s a place where it’s called thermal electric, which is like a factory.

Interviewer: Thermal electric?

Joseph: Thermal electric factory, where the hours are ridiculous. Is what? 10, 12, and 14 hour shifts. Yeah. How are you going to work? I’m sorry. How are you going to study? Plus studying if some people have families, some people have things to do and that… And I get it. It’s just like, “Damn it’s hard.” But the main thing about it is that there’s nobody out there telling us like, “Yo, do this.” And also that comfort zone sets in because I have a lot of friends. I have one friend that I’m always trying to tell him, “Dude, you can be a supervisor, just go off the ladder.”

“I’m comfortable here.” He’s really said that, “I’m comfortable. I make good money. I make better money than them.” “Yeah, but your experience is going to go away a lot faster, different. You’re going to be able to grow in a different area. For example, you’re a call center supervisor, dude, you can be a supervisor in all call centers. You can go be a supervisor in Cancun. They make more money over there. You can do a lot of things.”

And they also give you higher education because… And that’s the bad part about here in Mexico because when you’re just a low employee, they help you study but it’s like, “Make it work. You have to come here and work, but you can study whenever you want, but you have to be here.” And whenever you’re in an administrator bit higher up, they’re like, “You can work inside and let’s work with you. We’ll work with you.” And that’s the sad part where people don’t get that opportunity. It’s very difficult to grow if you don’t change that mindset, comfort zone. And also go ask around because asking around, pro, con. Con can be like, they’ll probably just give you bad information or not good information. Pro is that people who want to help you will actually let you know like, “Yo, you need to grow this, this in a way.” Like, “How do you want to grow?”

Interviewer: I want to talk to you about how you’ve changed a little bit. How do you feel in Mexico now compared to your last interview?

Joseph: Still have problems like everybody else. I’m not too sure. I don’t remember that Joseph did that back in the day. I can say I’m a little bit more happy. I guess, I’ve always been happy. I’ve always been excited. I’ve always seen impediments, blockers or any type of problems as something that needs to be overcome. And if you can overcome them, great. If you can’t overcome them at that point, maybe you’re not ready. Maybe you have to acquire something, a mindset, or a tool or anything. I live life working hard, having fun and showing the best I can to people and just being a little bit more social, because back in the day I could have been social, but I felt alone. Now, it’s just like, I feel social, but I feel more understood because there’s a lot of people, but their mindsets are different.

They’re also adaptable or they’re also like, “Oh you got a good mindset.” We share thoughts because I don’t expect everyone to have the same mindset, but we can go ahead have mutual grounds. Whenever, I was back in the day I was call centers. They’re thinking about drugs, alcohol, girls, stuff like that, where it’s cool but then it’s just like, “We need more.” And also the conversation level is a lot different because I talk about other things than just what happened last night at a party at the bar. It’s just like, “Yo, you saw this new movie?” Or, “Yo, you saw this new art exhibit?” It’s something I couldn’t tell my friends back in the day. Because like, “What the fuck is wrong with you? You going to art?”

Interviewer: Art?

Joseph: Yeah. And I always like art and jazz. I’ve always liked that type of point of views to go ahead and see different ideas and aspects. Maybe I don’t know how to interpret art because I just see lines and paintings and colors, but I like how they draw it. I like how they put the emotions to it and something you can’t really relate to those type of friends because they’re just like, “Yo.” They’re talking about cars, bikes, which is cool too, but they’re not… I didn’t see any progression on that set. I do feel that in essence I did grow. I changed certain aspects of how I communicate with people now.

Food wise, no, still same, love food. I probably would say I’m a functional alcoholic. I drink maybe a beer a day basically just to just go ahead and just chill with good cigarette after work. It’s like, whenever you drink a cup of wine, it could be a cup of wine too. But yeah, I could drink a cup of wine every day just to talk and sometimes I have friends over just talk about things, like, “How was work? How was school?” Or anything new that they saw, stuff like that. And so yeah, that’s the thing I would do to change. I’d rather have more consistencies in my life than actually just having fun.

Interviewer: Do you still go to art exhibits? Do you still go-

Joseph: Yeah.

Interviewer: To jazz concerts and stuff?

Joseph: Well, the pandemic started, so it’s kind of shuffled the groove, but whenever they do have it and also if I have time and the money, because sometimes they don’t work. Same. I will go to art exhibits. I will go to… I’ve already been to the museums here. It’s not something new that can change, but whenever they have new expo, I try to go. Or whenever the Digital Van Gogh came here in 3D, I went to that one. That was pretty badass. And then there was also Maya, they used to do concert halls or I usually do concert because of the acoustic sounds.

I used to go there, but after the pandemic just started, I just dropped out that well because usually when you have your phone, your Facebook, your internet and Twitter just always gives you those recommendations and you can see my phone doesn’t give me that anymore. Just they give me more about beers, food, or travel. It did change in that sense, but once it’s reacted and it’s reacted a little bit now, so I go once in a while when I can.

Interviewer: And so earlier you hinted on this with the pandemic, but what are some of the things you’re still struggling with?

Joseph: Something very personal reasons is that I can’t connect with a girlfriend like… And when I can connect, it’s just either can’t, not the correct moment. I guess that would be it because I’m used to a certain type of idea that over here, certain culture of the woman here, especially the ones that are born here, they’re not that very open. They’re not very communicative. They’re just very struggling to what I was used to. Connecting with a girlfriend has been very hard for me. I think I’ve had… in my 10 years here, 11 years, I don’t know, like 11 girlfriends, I would say one per year, but they never make it because I see something I don’t like. I fear that if I have a child with them, I will end up or I will be like most of my friends that they have problems with the baby mamas or anything like that because they don’t have that communication.

And that’s something very important, communication. We can hate each other, but if we both agree that a kid is always first and I’m good with it. I don’t care if we break up or divorced, whatever, if we have a kid. That’s kind of, I guess one thing that I do miss in the States, because I felt that I had a better bond, connection and I think it’s because of the culture, because over there’s the same things. Same things that I used to like, same things I used to go, same things I used to venture with.

And over here, I guess in my world, I never met someone that kind of certainly like same things and also other things because they just don’t go out or they just don’t do anything or stuff like that. There’s been a barrier there. Other than that, communication could be still a little issue because this is mixed up words or mix up train of thoughts when I speak in Spanish. And they’re like, “Wait, what?” And I’m like, “I meant this.” And they’re like, “Oh, you mean this?” Like, “Yeah, that.” That’s about it. I guess. Just things.

Interviewer: I want to shift gears a little bit.

Joseph: Sure.

Interviewer: What have you done since you’ve been in Mexico to make it feel more like home for you?

Joseph: I guess it changed my train of thought. I stopped missing things from over there that I couldn’t do at the moment. For example, friends, family. Made new friends, family here. Food, find new places to eat here. I started substituting my life that I was over there to my life here because I had to do that because I couldn’t be bitter. I had to go ahead and have a plan and adapt. I can’t just… I mean, reminisce is good as long as there are good thoughts or good memories, but if you stay too long in a bad memory or dull memory, you stay there. I never liked to do that. That’s the way I adapted.

Interviewer: How would you say your identity has changed since the last interview?

Joseph: My identity?

Interviewer: Yeah. How do you compare Joseph three years ago to Joseph now?

Joseph: I’m more motivated. The plans that I had back in the day, I have them now. It’s my little ducks going along the line, I guess.

Interviewer: Can you tell me what those plans were?

Joseph: Oh, back in the day was car, studying, getting a better lifestyle for work, which is the remote part, making better compensation packages for work as well. Visiting my family more because being in a call center is very absorbent. Couldn’t visit my family, my grandma, my grandpa. And just being able to go ahead and see Mexico because usually when I first got here, I was a wreck. I would visit Mexico, but I would visit them in a drunk state so I wouldn’t remember. I would remember the party part, but I wouldn’t remember how beautiful streets were, architect things. Now that I do, now that I go out, I use my phone more. I have a bunch of pictures where just take photos of certain things that I like. I enjoy life more. Those are things have been better now.

Interviewer: That’s good. And so during the survey you told me you feel somewhat optimistic about your future in Mexico. Can you elaborate on that?

Joseph: I don’t know. It just seems not correct saying that I’m fully optimistic because you got to factor in that life happens. Certain things don’t go how you expect. I’m somewhat optimistic because if something happens that I’m not going to meet my goal, my plan, my idea, my vision, and I have to adapt it. And that’s what makes me somewhat optimistic because once that happens, it’s like, “Oh, I’m good.” Because I can go ahead and change my view there saying, ” All right, maybe I can’t go here, but I can go and do this.” Or maybe I didn’t achieve this, but I achieved that. That’s why I’m somehow optimistic.

It’s just a better view for myself to view life that I can be optimistic, but to a certain point where it depends on me as well because optimism is that life is going to be great for me. But if you don’t work, you don’t put in the work. If you don’t put in the hours, you don’t put in the deduction you go get that. You can’t really be optimistic. That’s why I’m personally more optimistic.

Interviewer: That’s a good answer. During the survey, you told me this really badass story about your experience with violence in Mexico. Do you mind retelling it?

Joseph: Sure. It’s a time I got mugged and my third paycheck at the call center, it was here in ____. We were going to go out for drinks. I didn’t have money. I went to the cashier and once cashier, took out the money, I was getting my card. I was about to put things in my book bag where I just heard in English, “Give me all your money.” I was just like, “What?” First thing in my mind was like, “Okay, so these guys know me.” I turned around, and he was like, “Don’t turn around.” And I turned around anyway and that’s when he took the knife out. And then when the guy took the knife out, the guy was in the back. He was outside the door from the cashier and the other guy was coming in. And once he puts his hand on my collar, my sweatshirt, the first thing… My first reaction, as soon as his hand was going from my shirt, my reaction was already my hand was lifting. Now, I was grabbing his wrist already.

When I grabbed his wrist, I just flinged him and spun him into the ATM machine. And once that was happening, the same movement knocked up my backpack and I grabbed the backpack and I saw the guy coming. I just slammed my backpack in the face of the guy. The good thing I had a… I remember now better because I had a water bottle, I think it was a two liter water bottle that was ice cold. And I had it there because I forgot to take it out at work. It was cold. I knew that hurt him. And when that happened, the knife drop, let go of the other guy, grabbed a knife, grabbed my book bag. And I didn’t even notice that my card and my money were on the floor. Yeah. When that happened, it’s just like, I told him to run. The first thing I said was like, “Yo, bounce. Leave.”

Once that happened, picked up my card, picked up the money, grabbed a cigarette. My friend came, his first words was like, “Yo, I was waiting for you. What the fuck? We’re going to be late.” And I was calm as water saying like, “Yo, I just got mugged.” And then he’s like, ” What? Yo, let’s go get him. Blah, blah, blah.” And I was just like, “No, dude, I’m good. I’m fine.” And he is like, “How are you going to get mugged?” He’s like, “Oh, here.” And I show him the knife. He’s like, “Wait, someone pulled a knife on you?” I was like, “Yeah” “What the fuck. Why?” “I didn’t ask him. Sorry.” The other friends came and they’re like, “You’re good, dude. You want to us go find them? Blah, blah, blah.” I was like “No, why? No.” I was just like, “I’m good.”

And I never really told him until we got to the bar. My friend was like, “Yo, since you got mugged, I got your round.” Like, “I’ll pay for your drinks.” “I do have money.” He’s like, “I thought you got mugged?” I said, “Well, yeah. Well, my bad. They tried to mug me, but it didn’t proceed as they wanted to because I hit one guy and the other guy dropped his knife, blah blah, blah.” I explain the whole story. He like, “Wait, so you actually hit them?” “Yeah. I told you I hit him over there.” It’s like, “Yeah. But we all say that like when we were about to get mugged.” Like, “Oh yo, what happened?” He like, “Oh, I hit that motherfucker he ran off.” Like, that’s kind of what… I guess men do, I guess. Trouble.

Interviewer: It’s like to not reduce the-

Joseph: Your manhood. And he’s like, “Wait, so you actually did do it?” I was like, “Yeah.” He was like, “Oh, okay. I’m not fucking with you.” Once I tell the story, just people are like, “Yo, you’re stupid.” And now I say it, now I would not… If you ask me back in the day back there, when that happened versus now I would literally give my money now because one, I’m not in a physical physique that I was back in the day, the strength is also a factor. And also the training because people who have certain training or certain things, even they get mugged and they get beat up. But there’s certain things that sometimes they favor you, but it’s just like, “Why am I going to go ahead and fight for something that I can report or get an insurance on or stuff like that?” That’s what happened there. And I hear it now and I hear myself saying, it’s just like, “Wow, that was an interesting moment in my life.”

Interviewer: I agree. Why do you think your first reaction was to fight?

Joseph: Just do it. Back then, I didn’t think. I just did it. When someone says fight… When someone else was thinking about fighting, I was already doing it. Like I said earlier, I’ve always been a person that’s punches or hits first, then asks questions, just because it’s a little bit easier to protect yourself that way. But fighting, if you do it on a professional level, awesome. If you do it in a level just to fight in the streets, then it’s not good anymore, my perspective. Sometimes it does help to go… I don’t know, box or go with your friends and hit the boxing ring or get some gloves on, just get some things out. Because that reminds me of my childhood, where my cousins and my father, my uncles, we would get together and we would put on the boxing gloves and we would sort out all our differences there.

Sometimes you have differences with your friends. Sometimes you probably don’t want to say, because you don’t want to hurt the feeling and stuff like that. But since I choose my friends wisely because I’m very upfront. And so just the way I say things can be like, “You’re a dick.” I’m not bad, I’m just trying to tell you the truth. Get that idea in your mind. And when that happens, it makes you, like I said, your bro code gets better, your bonds get better. And also I feel that helps you, fighting does help you release stress, if you’re in controlled environment, if you’re not in a controlled environment, then it’s just putting your life at risk for no reason.

Interviewer: But now when you are faced with some type of confrontation, your first instinct isn’t to fight anymore, right?

Joseph: Yeah, no. My first instinct is to go ahead and see how I can deescalate the situation, how I can go ahead and make things work a different way. Basically, fighting is my last resort now. Obviously, I do have one model that if someone puts their hands on me, then all that goes down the drain and my instinct kicks in to actually just go for it basically. That’s how my point of view is there.

Interviewer: And so during the survey you were telling me about this special way that you like to deescalate. Do you remember that?

Joseph: I’ve had some encounters where I wasn’t aware, maybe speaking to a girl that she would probably come with a boyfriend, something of sort and they were coming at me hot. I would do it too, like some guys came on my girl, like, “What the hell?” The first thing I would say like, “Yo, my bad, I wasn’t aware that she was coming with somebody.” And like, “But do you want beer?” I guess nine times out of 10 that works. They just laugh. And they’re like, “Yeah, give me a beer.” All right, cool. And then after that I leave and then sometimes even we mix tables and start sharing stories, stuff like that. And it’s a good… I don’t know, club story, I guess. But that’s usually how I deescalate. I always invite a beer because, who says no to a beer? Free beer?

Interviewer: Yeah, I wouldn’t.

Joseph: Is it like, “Yo man, I’m sorry. You want beer?” And it gets you off guard because instead of actually making a conversation to that person, you give them a positive instead of a negative. And all you have to do is weight of that positive makes another positive. That’s it. That’s how basically I work things out now. That’s my deescalation point and if just things don’t work, I just try, it’s like, “All right, man. I’m cool. Bye, bye.” And leave.

Interviewer: Earlier in the interview you were telling me about your experiences when you first came to Mexico. Now that you’ve been here for… Was it 11 years?

Joseph: Yep. 11 years.

Interviewer: What are some of the things you would tell yourself or other returning migrants?

Joseph: Don’t limit themselves. Push hard and don’t listen to a lot of people who are just stuck in their old ways and trying to help them out to know where to go get the identities, let them know where certain problems, obstacles they might face and give them options that, “Yes, you can do a call center job firsthand, but that if you work hard in other aspects, you can grow and you can do other jobs.” For example, there’s a lot of people here that I’ve met that want to be a vet, want to be a barber, other professional point of views. And it’s just like, “Well, why don’t you do it?” And the same thing is just like, “I don’t have the money. I don’t have time and blah, blah, blah.” And I told them like, “Have you ever seen that open english commercial where they say that most humans spend probably by half an hour of their life on just social media? Just sitting there.

And there’s other people that spend a whole bunch more than that. If you’re fitting that category and you actually just do homework there or do study something there, your life can change. You can do, it’s just the priority you give your life. I would do that and also let them know that there’s certain schools that will help you revive your education. I would let them know about Order, I haven’t really been in touch with them, but that they can go and help them out as well.

And just keep on trying and not… And change the memories that they’re missing over there for good ones and also adapt what they liked over there to over here. For example, they were friends. Make friends here, make better friends than you were kind of over there. Food, go out, try food. The Mexican culture for food is very good here. You like doing activities, dude, there’s a bunch of activities you can do. I would go ahead and just tell them, like, “Substitute what you usually do over there to over here.” And tell them to just don’t go hard on drugs like you did over there basically.

Interviewer: And so it’s been three years since your last talk. What do you see yourself doing in the next three years?

Joseph: I hopefully will have my apartment, a second car, doing a second degree.

Interviewer: What would the degree be?

Joseph: I’m formalizing my engineering software. I’m going to formalize it because I owned the bootcamp and technically that makes me an engineer, but I don’t feel comfortable. People telling me… Engineer. It’s just like I want to earn it, even though I did bust my ass in that time, I want to have that paper recognition. That would be that. That would be basically what I would go ahead and want myself accomplish there.

Interviewer: And so this is going to be my last question. We’ve talked a lot today. What do you want the people listening and reading to this interview to take away? What do you want your message to be?

Joseph: I guess I would say we all have travesties, problems and if someone who came from a different culture can prosper and grow in a different culture, then we have to learn how to go ahead and adapt ourselves to people, their point of views and to not judge people right off the spot and also to… There’s nothing wrong to dream. And there’s nothing wrong to actually help people that you don’t know because that’s what I think we need as a humanity. There’s a lot of people that just don’t understand that we need to help each other to keep growing.

We have a lot of problems that people are overlooking. For example, I’ve been studying, reading and the earth is changing so much. There’s certain climate changes that are happening that people maybe do know. Maybe they’re like, “Oh, it’s hotter than most years.” It’s because of a reason. And I feel that we need to start taking care of ourselves, start taking care of other people and keep pushing ourselves and driving. Probably my take for the readers to keep pushing, keep dreaming and don’t limit themselves.

Interviewer: All right. Thank you so much.

Joseph: No problem.

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